MozillaZine

General topics about Firefox?

Talk about stuff specific to the site -- bugs, suggestions, and of course praise welcome.
PrimusUltimo
 
Posts: 16
Joined: November 25th, 2017, 12:33 am

Post Posted November 29th, 2017, 7:34 am

For the benefit of us n00bs, exactly what is allowed to discuss under the topic "Firefox General: Discussion of general topics about Mozilla Firefox"?

It seems that discussion about the Mozilla Manifesto and Pledge is off topic. It also seems that discussions about the direction of Firefox development is off topic. Not only do these topics seem to enrage the old-timers, they're also shut down by moderators. Curiously, one-sided praise of Mozilla on these topics seem to pass scrutiny, as does purely descriptive statements ("that's just how it is"), in spite of not fulfilling the criteria of being discussions. Pure support questions also seem to pass scrutiny, in spite of obviously belonging in "Firefox Support: User Help for Mozilla Firefox". In fact, everything and anything that clearly belongs elsewhere seems to pass muster.

So, what's left, for those who want to discuss Firefox, and stay on topic, but don't want to get shut down? Could the moderators and old-timers please clarify the criteria, as it's obvious that the forum description is inadequate and/or misleading?

The question may seem sarcastic, but is genuine. Partly because I'm curious, plain and simple. Mostly, though, it's because I would like to know upfront, so I can decide if this is forum where new arrivals, even ones with views diverting from the local consensus, are welcome to take part, or if I should move on. While simple messages to "get lost", or immediate locking of the topic, will be informative enough, I'm hoping for a more elaborate and adequate explanation.

Brummelchen
 
Posts: 2856
Joined: March 19th, 2005, 10:51 am

Post Posted November 29th, 2017, 8:05 am

"Firefox General" is not for "Site Discussion" :roll:

Gingerbread Man

User avatar
 
Posts: 7710
Joined: January 30th, 2007, 10:55 am

Post Posted November 29th, 2017, 8:56 am

PrimusUltimo wrote:For the benefit of us n00bs, exactly what is allowed to discuss under the topic "Firefox General: Discussion of general topics about Mozilla Firefox"?

For starters, this thread doesn't belong here, but in Site Discussion. This is for Firefox topics that aren't related to support, features, non-release builds, or (actual) bugs.
PrimusUltimo wrote:It seems that discussion about the Mozilla Manifesto and Pledge is off topic.

I think that would go in MozillaZine After Dark, because it's Mozilla-related but not tech-related.
PrimusUltimo wrote:It also seems that discussions about the direction of Firefox development is off topic. Not only do these topics seem to enrage the old-timers, they're also shut down by moderators.

As a rule of thumb, moderators have little patience if you don't want help and you're just here to complain. Go to https://input.mozilla.org to inform Mozilla of your displeasure directly.
I assure you, the ones who have used Firefox the longest have the longest list of grievances. But they tend to express that in a more constructive way, e.g. "Here's what I went through upgrading" rather than "ZOMG this is the worst WTF I hate Mozilla now!".
PrimusUltimo wrote:Pure support questions also seem to pass scrutiny, in spite of obviously belonging in "Firefox Support: User Help for Mozilla Firefox". In fact, everything and anything that clearly belongs elsewhere seems to pass muster.

Threads may linger here until moderators move them. It's also sometimes a blurry line between "I need help because of a problem" and "I need help because I want to customize the browser in a highly specific way, and it's not worth bothering the support forum with that". You can post in the moderation thread if you think a topic should be moved elsewhere.

mightyglydd

User avatar
 
Posts: 9089
Joined: November 4th, 2006, 7:07 pm
Location: Hollywood Ca.

Post Posted November 29th, 2017, 9:07 am

PrimusUltimo wrote: I would like to know upfront, so I can decide if this is forum where new arrivals, even ones with views diverting from the local consensus, are welcome to take part, or if I should move on.

New arrival ! :-k Yeah right, ...... what were your last user names before being banned?
#KeepFightingMichael

smsmith
Moderator

User avatar
 
Posts: 19542
Joined: December 7th, 2004, 8:51 pm
Location: Indiana

Post Posted November 29th, 2017, 9:23 am

Moving to Site Discussion.
Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime.
I like poetry, long walks on the beach and poking dead things with a stick.
Please do not PM me for personal support. Keep posts here in the Forums instead and we all learn.

PrimusUltimo
 
Posts: 16
Joined: November 25th, 2017, 12:33 am

Post Posted November 29th, 2017, 9:56 am

Gingerbread Man wrote:For starters, this thread doesn't belong here, but in Site Discussion. This is for Firefox topics that aren't related to support, features, non-release builds, or (actual) bugs.

Thank you, for that information. I hadn't noticed that forum, which I should have; more so, as my entire post is about things being on-topic and off-topic. I apologize, and if a moderator would help me rectify the error, that would be appreciated.

Gingerbread Man wrote:I think that would go in MozillaZine After Dark, because it's Mozilla-related but not tech-related.

"MozillaZine AfterDark" seems to very specifically not be the place for it, with the description "General chit-chat, not related to Mozilla".

Gingerbread Man wrote:As a rule of thumb, moderators have little patience if you don't want help and you're just here to complain.

True, moderators are generally an impatient lot. In this case, though, the forum description seems to be in conflict with their policy. Getting and giving help is very much not a discussion. It's also a mistake to categorize all critical expression as "just complaining". They're an essential element in all discussions.

Gingerbread Man wrote:Go to https://input.mozilla.org to inform Mozilla of your displeasure directly.

I have done that. However, to use an analogy, the wisdom of directly contacting your elected political official (e.g. congressman), doesn't negate the wisdom of a healthy, public, political debate. The same goes for companies and customers, and developers and users. In my opinion. A lot can be said for an open discussion, even where it doesn't directly affect the decision-making.

Gingerbread Man wrote:I assure you, the ones who have used Firefox the longest have the longest list of grievances. But they tend to express that in a more constructive way, e.g. "Here's what I went through upgrading" rather than "ZOMG this is the worst WTF I hate Mozilla now!".

With no interest in how their grievances might be addressed, or curiosity about why the causes of them were created in the first place? It seems like a very passive, even defeated, attitude. Personally, I've used Firefox since Netscape was discontinued. Mostly, I've been very happy with it, and my list of grievances has been short. Possibly, it's now my turn to become a defeated cynical, but I'm happy not to be quite there, yet.

Gingerbread Man wrote:It's also sometimes a blurry line between "I need help because of a problem" and "I need help because I want to customize the browser in a highly specific way, and it's not worth bothering the support forum with that".

But they consider it OK to bother the general topic about a very specific support problem? I believe you, as I've seen it, but the reasoning escapes me.

I appreciate the information and explanation. My objections to the reasoning behind the policies you describe, aren't objections to your descriptions. They may very well be accurate, and I'm aware that you're not responsible for them.

I'd still like more input on my question, though, if anyone has more to contribute.

Edit: I notice my request was accommodated, even before I made it. Thank you, smsmith :D
Last edited by PrimusUltimo on November 29th, 2017, 10:16 am, edited 3 times in total.

PrimusUltimo
 
Posts: 16
Joined: November 25th, 2017, 12:33 am

Post Posted November 29th, 2017, 10:04 am

mightyglydd wrote:New arrival ! :-k Yeah right, ...... what were your last user names before being banned?

I believe my writing style is fairly distinctive. If I'd been here before, I'm pretty sure someone would've provided the forum with a full list of my previous user names, by now. Several old-timers seem to have long and excellent memories.

Kevin McFarlane
 
Posts: 514
Joined: November 10th, 2009, 3:47 am

Post Posted November 29th, 2017, 10:25 am

PrimusUltimo wrote:
Gingerbread Man wrote:I assure you, the ones who have used Firefox the longest have the longest list of grievances. But they tend to express that in a more constructive way, e.g. "Here's what I went through upgrading" rather than "ZOMG this is the worst WTF I hate Mozilla now!".

With no interest in how their grievances might be addressed, or curiosity about why the cause of them were created in the first place? It seems like a very passive, even defeated, attitude. Personally, I've used Firefox since Netscape was discontinued. Mostly, I've been very happy with it, and my list of grievances has been short. Possibly, it's now my turn to become a defeated cynical, but I'm happy not to be quite there, yet.



There probably needs to be a mozillaZine Tech or AfterDark for topics, chit-chat related to Mozilla instead of not related to Mozilla to accommodate what you're looking for. T"he main Firefox forums seem to be problem/solution-oriented. So if as part of a thread you just say "Firefox sucks" or "Mozilla should have done X" then, sure, maybe say that once but otherwise it detracts from the problem/solution orientation of those forums. Plus there's nothing anyone at mozillaZine can do about it.

Whereas in forums such as I've suggested or "lounge" or "general technical", that I see at many sites, I would expect to see some discussions of your nature. There's not an expectation that any solution is being provided. Though, of course, we might learn some ideas which can then subsequently be fed to Mozilla.

That's my two cents.

tanstaafl
Moderator

User avatar
 
Posts: 43500
Joined: July 30th, 2003, 5:06 pm

Post Posted November 29th, 2017, 12:35 pm

PrimusUltimo wrote:It seems that discussion about the Mozilla Manifesto and Pledge is off topic.

True. The Mozilla Development forum would be the closest match but we don't really have a forum for discussing that topic since its not application specific. I suggest you browse https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/forums/ for a more appropriate forum.

PrimusUltimo wrote:It also seems that discussions about the direction of Firefox development is off topic. Not only do these topics seem to enrage the old-timers, they're also shut down by moderators.

It is not off topic but some discretion and tact is needed because there have been so many trolls and flame wars in the Firefox forums. There are also some topics such as problems due to dropping legacy add-on support that have been re-hashed so many times that a lot of users/moderators lose patience when somebody goes off on a diatribe about them. I haven't searched your posts (and don't want to argue about a particular thread) but the problem may not be what you tried to discuss, but how you tried to discuss it and what people thought you were trying to accomplish.

In general, showing that you invested the time beforehand to read several popular threads about your topic helps a lot.

PrimusUltimo wrote:Pure support questions also seem to pass scrutiny, in spite of obviously belonging in "Firefox Support: User Help for Mozilla Firefox".

One of the guidelines for the moderators is "less is more" (which we follow with varying degrees of success). So if its a legitimate question and there is a reasonable chance you'll get a good answer we will frequently leave it be even though it should be in the Firefox Support forum.

Frank Lion

User avatar
 
Posts: 19630
Joined: April 23rd, 2004, 6:59 pm
Location: ... The Exorcist....United Kingdom

Post Posted November 30th, 2017, 7:28 am

PrimusUltimo wrote:For the benefit of us n00bs, exactly what is allowed to discuss under the topic "Firefox General: Discussion of general topics about Mozilla Firefox"?

For a general idea, pick any page from this 49 page thread and take it from there - viewtopic.php?p=14722334#p14722334

As this is essentially a tech forum, n00bs should note how concise and to the point the posts are.

PrimusUltimo wrote:It seems that discussion about the Mozilla Manifesto and Pledge is off topic. It also seems that discussions about the direction of Firefox development is off topic.

It seems like someone didn't read any threads before posting here.

The only things that are off-topic here are attention whores who pad out a two line point of view into a 10,000+ word post.

Reddit this is not.
Metal Lion latest SeaMonkey & Thunderbird Themes - Sea Monkey and Silver Sea Monkey
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke (attrib.)

Return to MozillaZine Site Discussion


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests