So what happened here? Daifne/Lucy/mconnor thread

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malliz
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Post by malliz »

First of all I would like to offer a Public apology to Lucy, mconner and any one else I may have offended. It's was stupid juvenile and totally inappropriate. And I feel after reading Alex's post that at the least I should self impose a ban for myself. I would like to say how sorry I am that this got out of hand as I feel like I was at least 99% at fault here. In our defence Alex the support regulars, spend a lot off time giving free advice and getting very little thanks Official or otherwise. And sure we are a close knit group, you have to be to put up with the abuse we get.
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old np
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Re: So what happened here? Daifne/Lucy/mconnor thread

Post by old np »

Alex Bishop wrote:We have a problem here and I'm not just referring to this specific incident. Too many users say that they are leaving due to the moderators. Moderators should never become visible enough for this to be an issue. It seems that some of the moderators (and other regulars) frequently close ranks in a way that makes them seem unrepresentative and sometimes hostile, a kind of arrogant clique. Frankly, the behaviour of the moderators as a whole sometimes reminds me of some sort of elite security service, drunk on power. Far too often have I seen moderators abuse their position to score points or stifle debate (even when a poster is clearly factually wrong, the response should be vigorous debate not harsh moderation). The opinions of moderators are not automatically correct and their decisions are never above criticism or debate.

As one of the two people who can something about it, are you going to do something about it?
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Post by Old Makondo »

Thanks np, about time!
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Post by Tad Ghostal »

It seems that some of the moderators (and other regulars) frequently close ranks in a way that makes them seem unrepresentative and sometimes hostile, a kind of arrogant clique.


Threads like this:
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=462014
don't help much either. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite, but I'm about ready to start distancing myself from that anyway.

Sorry for getting off of the topic at hand, by the way.
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Mike
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Post by Mike »

^ Careful, you will feel the wrath of malliz if you criticize that thread, as I have. I have been against that thread from the very beginning, and I think it would be a good idea for users to stop posting in it, if it's not going to get locked by an admin, but I would hope Alex and/or kerz can see that a thread such as that goes against everything the community stands for, even if it is all in good fun.

On another note, np, why not just get reinstated as a moderator? You always did a great job, and were very fair, as well as experienced in these forums. I know you don't have as much time to dedicate here, but whatever spare time you have would certainly be helpful, especially when there are a number of moderators that haven't posted in quite some time.
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Post by old np »

I don't think these forums have a lack of quality moderators, and even if there was I'm sure there's some good candidates for new mods already. The problem is the actions of a minority of them.
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Post by theshadowofgold »

Although I've been a little busy with extensive outside reading and an essay for class, I have now caught up on the discussion and see that the atmosphere among the involved posters and moderators has, at least somewhat, cooled down. But having earned over 7500 combined posts in various forums, and having applied some moderating duties on various less successful forums, I've seen nearly everything. There are a few tidbits that I've picked up and feel should be taken home with you all. Think of me as the deep-voiced gentleman from American Pie... I don't remember his name, but that's how it goes for now.

If a moderator is directly involved in one of these heated debates, then it is dangerous to combine the idea that "I am a poster and have something to add to these comments" with the last resort that "I will force this discussion to end if it continues in this manner." The moderator must play one side or the other, but never both. In such a discussion, the moderator may say, "I still feel that what I stated about removing the .msf files is correct" and end it there. Or, the moderator can say, "The intensity of your comments is inappropriate" and end that there. The danger of forcing the discussion to an end by saying, "If you don't cool it, then you will take a forum timeout" is not knowing if the moderator will follow through with it. And, as point out earlier, moderators represent an authority and thus, under all circumstances, must act especially cautiously and conservatively than their own personal tolerances might allow. It's simply a matter of whether or not this danger is realized first. When it's not, that's where the regular poster's perception of a "double standard" or "playing favorites" will dominate. Unfortunately, it's an internet-wide phenomenon; it's not localized to just these boards.

Yet at the same time, the original poster must acknowledge his/her own inappropriate comments, no matter what the subject is. Increasingly more forums are migrating to nearly entirely private messaging for alerting individuals to inappropriate content. Moderators on some of these forums will spontaneously end the heated debate right smack in the middle of it with a post like this: "The tone of voice used in the preceding comments is inappropriate. A private message will follow." Note the lack of the word "you" (or "your") altogether. When a moderator uses "you" or "your" to discourage what was just said, it is a personal attack to the user. The moderator would then only use "you" or "your" in the private message to reference "your post starting with..." and then point out the violation in a similar, conservative tone: "...contained flamatory remarks aimed at a moderator." I'd like you all to note that even if, in the heated the debate, the user aimed these remarks at a moderator, who then sends the private message, the moderator is referred to anonymously in the third person. In other words, "...aimed at me" is unacceptable, but "...aimed at a moderator" is, because the first option blurs the line between posting comments as a user and forcing ends to a debate as a moderator, as I discussed above.

Now, there were a few places in the debate of concern that mentioned spelling or grammatical mistakes. Just a couple of quick points here. Even if it seems glaringly obvious that the user stated a desire to obtain personal information, which we now know was a mistype, you don't really point it back out to the user. Instead, you ask, "What do you mean by 'your personal information'?" or "What do you mean by..." and then quote the comment(s) of interest. Again, I'd like you all to note that not only should a question be asked instead, but the question should not necessarily end in only a "Yes" or a "No." Use open ended questions. Otherwise, you implant into the user's mind that the correct answer is one of "Yes" and "No," and the user is forced to pick "the right one" and then move on. So, for example: "What do you mean by 'I'd like you get a hold of your personal information'? Because the discussion of such information trickles along territorial grounds that go a bit beyond what we allow on these forums."

As an aside, my training in teaching ethics is mostly self-taught. It's a bit of a tradition that I've picked up from seeing teachers and the gentleman from American Pie over the years, but I feel that my current abilities are at least comparable to that of a first time teacher. Yes, I have tutored before, and I was a TA for a few months, and I am 21.
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Post by Lucy »

malliz - I definitely appreciate the apology. That was extremely big of you, but while it was you who was "bringing it" as it were, the fault still lies with the moderators.

Yes every forum has rules, but a lot of places have policies of following the rules with discretion. They're not hard and fast, just use common sense. You've obviously been allowed to react like this to people you thought were trolls, and leave posts of the nature that you did. Daifne was even encouraging you in the moderation thread, and Dartman didn't address you once (again unless it happened in private). As far as you were notified, you didn't step out of line. Yes, there are rules, but as far as anyone watching this can tell, you as a forum regular are *allowed* to bend some of them. I don't want to see the resolution to this as you being removed from the forums, especially after your last post. Forum users can't be held responsible for their actions especially if two moderators see it and say nothing.
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Post by jimfitter »

Mike wrote:... but I would hope Alex and/or kerz can see that a thread such as that goes against everything the community stands for...


I hardly think that you are in a good position to talk about 'community'. You are the guy who thought it was funny to threaten to photoshop a picture of my 9 year old daughter!

http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic ... 97#2728397

Doesn't that also 'go against everything the community stands for'?
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Post by Don Corleone »

pavlov wrote:Honestly, moderating big forums is a pain in the ass and you guys should cut the mods here some slack. If they ask someone not to post their email address and for people to post their replies in the forums so that others can actually follow the results that is perfectly within their right. It doesn't matter who the person is. Sure, if they know who the person is they might be less likely to call them out on it but that isn't really the issue here. If the mods ask you to do something just go along with it or take it to private messages. Lucy, mconnor, etc: Trying to argue with the moderators in public just makes you look bad imho. If you don't like their decisions go over their head and talk to an admin.

stuart

I agree with all of the above. There also seems to be some rewriting of history going on, as well as a good deal of spiteful vengefulness on this thread. There is talk of a bugzilla account, as though it would be obvious to anyone that this is someone from Mozilla, but when I look at the thread - it is a normal G Mail account! majken@gmail.com

Lots of talk of 'personal attacks', but when I look the very first such attack is not by mallez, but on Page 3 by JesusX -
Daifne: Honestly, it's mods like you that drive away the god moods. Lucy jumped in to help, and the first thing you do is chastise her. Yeah, you're a mod, wow. That doesn't mean you need to thump people. It means when there's a _problem_ you can sort it out. If you did a little research, you'd find Lucy's incredibly helpful. Just stop trolling and being impressed with yourself. No one else is.

- insulting the Moderator and calling them a troll. Then I find out that this same JesusX, who started the insults, is the same person, Grey, who started the web blog complaining about that thread! Something smells very wrong about all this.
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Post by pkasting »

Alex, thanks for your response. Seeing that an admin has an excellent grasp on the issue is reassuring.

malliz, thanks for the apology. Everyone does and says dumb things sometimes, but not everyone has the grace to apologize.
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Post by Lucy »

Don - I don't think http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic ... 54#2811954 was meant as a compliment.

There's plenty of other sniping going on in the mod thread the entire time and in the support thread all of which really weren't pleasant to be on the receiving end of. JesusX didn't call Daifne a troll anymore than she did me 50 minutes prior - http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic ... 62#2811962

I don't understand what seems "wrong" about the idea that he's also the one that blogged about it. He was watching the thread quietly and got really pissed off, so he posted and blogged. It's what a lot of people do. Yes, he wasn't as tactful as I would have asked him to be had I been coordinating anything or "controlling" anyone's "mouths" but simply the idea that someone being upset by a situation and blogging about it, is pretty predictable.
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Post by Don Corleone »

Thank you, Lucy, but I can read and do not require your spin. You make no mention about the G Mail as though no one would ever be suspicious about that. I stick to what I said here
Don Corleone wrote:... as well as a good deal of spiteful vengefulness on this thread.

I am glad that I am on the outside, from reading this thread the inside of Mozilla looks very vain, vengeful and unpleasant. Please leave me out of your comments in future. Thank you.
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Post by BenBasson »

Alex Bishop wrote:Now we have weblog posts strongly criticising the conduct of the moderators and calls for the Mozilla Foundation to publicly distance itself from the forums. If this continues, real damage will be done to both MozillaZine and the Mozilla community as a whole.

Alex, could you please link to these blog posts either here or on the moderation forum? I haven't had a chance to review this in-depth yet, but if it's getting as serious as you make it sound, I think we ought to be doing more as a community. Greater separation between Mozilla and MozillaZine will benefit nobody.
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