Hey, Theme Developers. You Are Needed and Appreciated.

Discuss application theming and theme development.
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Ken Saunders
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Hey, Theme Developers. You Are Needed and Appreciated.

Post by Ken Saunders »

I haven't been awake for too long so bare with me as I try to express my thoughts here.

](*,)
I'm tired of seeing theme developers go down as if they were some soldiers that have finally fallen after a war.
CatThief, aaron, patrickjdempsey, Frank Lion, Arvid Axelsson, and so many others have given up despite their very best efforts and patience.
Some gave it a second shot and stayed like Ed Hume, but most said, "-censored- this, I'm done."

You all, as theme developers, have gone through some what of an odd relationship.
I'm not sure, if since the beginning of time, developers ever liked the idea of someone altering the GUI of any product since it was some sort of designer somewhat like yourselves that worked on what they thought was best, but I believe that there was a time when theme developers where valued despite the above. Themes from what I saw, held as much value as extensions.

(earliest capture I could find)
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You all know the painful events that occurred over time that brings us up to the current state and the status and apparent perceived value of themes, officially at least so I won't reiterate.

What I do really want you to hear and realize though is that despite how you feel about what your value is officially doesn't matter. It just doesn't.
Humans inherently customize everything and change the default to what they want for themselves for purposes like, standing out, to be an individual and for their own identity, to express themselves, for personal tastes in things like colors, textures, and images, for functionality, and so on whether it be a new car, home, or just putting together an outfit in the morning, people are born customizers no matter what's given to them as the default.

An apartment complex with 1,000 identical units will all be set up and decorated differently by the inhabitants. Same applies to phones, computers and OS's, hair styles, clothes, heck, even food.
Chicken is chicken but we all don't eat chicken as chicken, We add things to it and change it 8 million ways. That isn't a solid number but I'm waiting on the metrics team to get back to me.

Ok, so, it doesn't matter who says what, or what is put in front of you, people are going to customize it for themselves.
All the hype about Google Chrome.
"Oh, wow, it's beautiful, it's so minimalistic, the World is at peace now".
One of the biggest complaints now about Chrome is that you can't do s*it about the way it looks. Unless of course you use one of those, um, themes.
:er:

WinCustomize, KDE-Look.org, interfacelift.com, deviantART.com, and on and on are popular because people want to customize.
If you know how Google suggest works, then you'll understand this image.
In short, it's what a large portion of people frequently search for with these terms.

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Mozilla end users are no different than anyone else.
It is getting harder for people to even discover the fact that they can even change Firefox etc with themes because it isn't pushed officially, but people still want to customize.

Now, despite a lot of you throwing in the towel, or thinking about it, you have a few options to continue on or resume your passions because I know that you all are passionate about what you do. You're first and foremost artists and that just doesn't leave you. It never does.
I'm a graphical artist hobbyist so I know.

CSS is just a different tool to create art like Photoshop, Gimp, Inkscape, a paintbrush, or crayons. It's harder, more time consuming, especially when you go to get a snack, or go to the can and you come back to see that someone has changed your canvas and you have to start over, but anyway.

The options. There are a few.
1) Themes for ESR. You can carry on and no one will change your canvas for a while giving you time to adjust if need be.

2) Stick to one theme.

3) Lighter themes. And I don't mean Lightweight themes.
Just some primary elements like toolbar buttons, etc.
A lot of people are doing that and it is going over ok. Not massively popular, but it works.
mine
Color Toolbar Icons for Firefox on WinXP
Phoenix Simple

4) A new site for Mozilla customizations.
Why? Because the focus will be strictly on Mozilla product customizations.
Eventually, it would show up first in search results for customizing Firefox, etc. and through grassroots, word of mouth, etc, it would become well known.

I can provide hosting and I'll even purchase the domain name and file for a Mozilla Domain Name license.
Mozilla won't feel threatened by a competing site. It wouldn't be competition. They may take issue with the name, but that can be altered. We could even get listed as a community site and perhaps use the Mozilla Bedrock theme if you desire (would need to check).
The platform used for it can be whatever y'all want whether it be WordPress, a CDN or something straightforward. A lead developer would be needed. I can help with administration, marketing somewhat (social, etc), and would devote a significant amount of time, effort, and energy, but I do have a lot of projects including other sites.
A few available.
customizefirefox.org (too specific, excludes SeaMonkey, Thunderbird, etc)
customizemozilla.org
It could even eventually hold themes, wallpapers, etc. for Firefox OS.
The main thing that I would ask is that it be restricted to Mozilla products only.
That's where my loyalties are.

You all could, should, would use some of the same channels for getting the word out about your themes and even same hosting spots if you'd like, like here, AMO, etc, but you'd always encourage people to go to the moz customize site. Here would still be a great place for support and announcements.

I do this, the post, the offers, for a number of reasons.
I love art, that's what y'all do. I love customizing. I have always respected the work you all do and always wanted to create a full (accessibility type, large) theme, but I just don't have the mental capacity, time, and certainly not the patience to create one which is where most of my respect for y'all comes from. Whether we've interacted directly or not, I have learned a whole lot over the years from you all in the theming community. I want to help y'all. I also believe in helping out end users where and when I can. I know that they want to customize, you do, heck, even Mozilla does, so lets help them.

Even though there actually is enough porn on the Internet to fill the time that you used to spend on themeing, you don't want to end up like this.

Image
©FOX Broadcasting Company

It's up to y'all what you want to do (of course) but it would take several of you to make #4 work.
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Frank Lion
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Re: Hey, Theme Developers. You Are Needed and Appreciated.

Post by Frank Lion »

Ken Saunders wrote:I'm tired of seeing theme developers go down as if they were some soldiers that have finally fallen after a war.
CatThief, aaron, patrickjdempsey, Frank Lion, Arvid Axelsson, and so many others have given up despite their very best efforts and patience.
Some gave it a second shot and stayed like Ed Hume, but most said, "-censored- this, I'm done."

Thanks for your post, Ken.

I should just point out, however, that none of this applies to me.

As many of you already know, I have always operated slightly differently to most theme writers and that still remains the case and I draw your attention to the screenshots below.

If I have anything to say then I'll say it, but I haven't. Meanwhile, it's business as usual.

I hope that clears up any misunderstandings.

Thanks.



Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Hmm, imageshack thumbs don't seem to be working.
Last edited by Frank Lion on November 18th, 2012, 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke (attrib.)
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Ken Saunders
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Re: Hey, Theme Developers. You Are Needed and Appreciated.

Post by Ken Saunders »

My bad. Thank you, sincerely
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Ken Saunders
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Re: Hey, Theme Developers. You Are Needed and Appreciated.

Post by Ken Saunders »

Also, I honestly did think that you quit. Seriously sorry.
I'll be putting Metal Lion 300 back on Access Firefox as a low contrast theme.
300 is one of my favorite movies. Top 5 actually.

Perhaps the thought of a new site isn't a bad idea for reasons like me thinking that you left (I'm sure that I'm not the only one), and for discovery to highlight your themes and others who had self-hosted sites with their themes on them. They wouldn't necessarily have to be hosted on the new site, this way you still get any traffic, revenue, etc, but the site could be also be a portal.

AccessFirefox.org is primarily a portal. It does have it's own resources, but it was intended to highlight and feature accessibility related add-ons, resources, etc, and bring them together in one place. That didn't exist before the site was created. Resources were scattered and hard to find. I know because I needed them for myself and looked.

It's a good idea to create a new site when there's a need that isn't being fully met, no one else is providing what you will, when you have a collection of things based on the same subject, and, when you can do a better job than someone else is.
I believe that a new Mozilla customization site meets all of those requirements.

I did this with AccessFirefox.org and my first (seriously outdated and ugly) site MouseRunner.com (being rebuilt).
MouseRunner.com first became popular and successful in its early days by offering a unique collection, and highlighting external resources of content for Firefox users, fans, etc, like Firefox games, screensavers, wallpaper, tips, etc. At the time, the main focus was on getting people to use Firefox which was mine too, but I wanted to celebrate it and no one else was doing it so it worked. And, again, those resources were scattered.

I know that the Add-ons Mirror did this, it did it well for a while, but this has a narrow and specific focus.

I'm not trying to talk anyone into this, I honestly don't need the new workload, but I'm saying that a new site is justified and I'm willing to help.
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patrickjdempsey
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Re: Hey, Theme Developers. You Are Needed and Appreciated.

Post by patrickjdempsey »

Personally Ken, the entire reason I got into Theming was because I hated the Firefox 3.0 theme. IMO it was based on misguided ideas about Windows Vista UI, and was thus a mess of weird blue icons everywhere, and too much of a move away from the classic Winstripe family of themes that I enjoyed. A great deal of the mess was fixed by the release of Firefox 3.6 but then the next stage came. With Firefox 4.0 I found that 90% of my time working on my themes wasn't about perfecting the look and feeling that I wanted, but about *fixing* the user interface that I felt Mozilla had badly broken. But even that wasn't the last straw.

The last straw for me was the developer tools, which as near as I can tell will never be finished. If there's a lull in the continuous tweaks you can bet that there will be a major "visual uplift" that will completely break compatibility with other versions. And then there's Mozilla's favorite UI element to play with: textbox placeholder text, which just last week saw yet another compatibility-breaking change... and once again, for no apparent reason. viewtopic.php?p=12471899#p12471899 How many versions of Firefox have we been forced to break compatibility for because of this one UI element? The attitude of developers who would severely break one UI element every 5 months or so for no apparent reason seems to be the same attitude of developers who would land devtools into the trunk at a ridiculously early developmental stage, and put their styling not only into the browser skin but in browser.css itself, and then continuously break it. I watch that Nightly theme changes thread and it's a continual onslaught.

Increasingly I've found that what I really have always wanted for Firefox is a way to revert behavior back to the simple days, which is why I created Luddite UI. Eventually the developers will break Firefox bad enough that it will no longer be a simple matter of flipping a few config prefs and applying a few stylesheets to fix, at which point I don't know what I'll do.

Even with all of that, I had considered following the ESR path. I abandoned my themes after I got final compatibility for 10.0 and let them sit. But the longer I let them sit, they started becoming part of a problem. Since most users are not aware of ESR, my 3.6 users would see that I didn't have a version compatible with say 15.0 and would refuse to update. And I don't want to be responsible for holding someone back from important security updates. Due to that, and news of the coming end to customization as we know it, and a total lack of user feedback over the last year, I've decided to pull all of my major themes from addons.mozilla.org.

I considered for some time doing a fork build based on ESR that strips out all of the fancy new features, resets preferences back to 2.0-3.0-era settings, and includes direct support for "buttons-only" themes. But the reality of managing such a build, and expecting extensions developers to provide compatibility (which they don't even do for SeaMonkey), makes it seem like an even more thankless task than theme building. And then there's the question of which features are worth keeping and which aren't... I'm a big big fan of Firefox 2.0 but many people loved stock Firefox 3.6... so is a fork even worth it?
Tip of the day: If it has "toolbar" in the name, it's crap.
What my avatar is about: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/sea-fox/
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akayser
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Re: Hey, Theme Developers. You Are Needed and Appreciated.

Post by akayser »

The biggest complaint is not that Firefox is continuously changing or adding new features, but that this happens without any communication to themers nor with any consideration to themes. Many of the UI changes introduce incompatibilities for themes (as a theme must/should maintain compatibility across multiple versions of Firefox).
Often changes to the Firefox codebase introduce stylesheets or images hidden in /content/ that a theme cannot be modified (e.g. the new profiler in the debugger).
Also new features are introduced and changed multiple times in incompatible ways across releases. For example the Facebook integration, which is totally different in different versions of Firefox.

Next to this, is all the focus to Personas (see other threads) where "full" themes are pushed away, or even hidden to normal users.
What's more selecting a Persona disabled an installed "full" theme, even if the "full" theme does fully support Persona's.
(on the first release of Persona's, it was possible to combine them with a full theme, but that was blocked by the Firefox team at some point in time).

All signs from the Mozilla organisation/foundation/whatever that they really hate our "heavy weight" themes ....
I am sure that they don't, but it sure feels that way. :(
Creator of the LittleFox, LittleBird, MicroFox, MicroBird, Nautipolis, Walnut, Walnut2, Bricks and Metal themes for Firefox and Thunderbird.
Visit https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/123/developers. Mozilla contributor since October 1999 (Mozilla M10).
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akayser
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Re: Hey, Theme Developers. You Are Needed and Appreciated.

Post by akayser »

Not to forget, the latest bug in AMO where themes with compatibility upto the latest available version (21.0a1) are reported as "Not available for Firefox 21.0" when visited with FF 21.0a1.
Creator of the LittleFox, LittleBird, MicroFox, MicroBird, Nautipolis, Walnut, Walnut2, Bricks and Metal themes for Firefox and Thunderbird.
Visit https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/123/developers. Mozilla contributor since October 1999 (Mozilla M10).
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jivko
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Re: Hey, Theme Developers. You Are Needed and Appreciated.

Post by jivko »

Actually I'm on the edge of giving up. I still have the desire to work on the themes but these new changes are blocking my users and keeping me away. I support 10 themes and some of them I created because of user requests. Nobody ask for our opinions about changes in the devtools, nobody ask us about changes on the Amo. Personas is popular enough and now they've put them on the custom theme page. I lost 2/3rds of my weekly downloads as well as other theme developers. The background changes don't work as well. Users still can't find custom themes. All these things are keeping me away even when I want to work. It's just the fact that my work is no longer appreciated and remains hidden from theme users. I don't think things are going to change here. We lost so many theme developer lately, some of which really talented. I really enjoyed savaden's game themes. Unfortunately he and many other theme developers no longer support their themes. There are few of us remaining and in my opinion the number of theme developers is going to drop even more in the near future. :(
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dkgo
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Re: Hey, Theme Developers. You Are Needed and Appreciated.

Post by dkgo »

I think Australis look weird. killed me =D>
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