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Another default theme coming

Discuss application theming and theme development.
Greg K Nicholson

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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 7:17 am

"sane defaults"

CeleronXL

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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 8:38 am

Jeff_pony wrote:The new theme looks ok to me, its not great but its better than what Opera released with 7.0. In some ways its exciting to have a new theme as its the easiest way to get a completely new look to the browser. The graphics in a UI have to move on once in a while else the app will start to feel old. I suppose the question has to remain who should have made these theme changes. What confuses me is why new icons, etc have been checked in if this change was immanent.
Well, Arvid was doing just this, giving the Qute theme a refresher with some new icons. I feel that that is the way to go: giving it a refresher, not a completely unnecessary overhaul.

Jeff_pony wrote:Why change and implement anything? Why change the theme from Px Classic to Qute. Its to move forward.
Because most people would agree that Qute is better than Px Classic, whereas a very small percentage of people here agree with this change.

gids wrote: You're forgetting that Phoenix/Firebird/fox never was a democracy, the developer's word is final and...that's it!
That's how it should be in a closed source project, not an open source one like this, where it's supposedly all about the end user. What a joke.

z43420024
 
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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 8:52 am

I won't say either winstripe or Qute is prettier until I see the final release of winstripe. However, I feel sorry for Arvid because he did a good job and keeps Qute theme improving.

From this issue, I found that there's lack of communication over the UI development in the future between both parties. I think Ben made this decision because he wants to keep tight control over UI development and doesn't want to leave it to outsider.

In my mind, I think the app that needs to have a new theme is mozilla suite. Both classic theme and modern theme are inferior to Qute or winstripe. Although many people prefer to use standalone app like firefox and TB, some still like the idea of the suite and think that it's a more mature product. I remember that every time people request to improve its UI, the development team would say it's a matter of taste.

And I think the theme of firefox should look consistent to OS we used rather than making it consistent across all platforms. Actually, I would like to see that firefox would have themes for KDE and GNOME respectively.

Kasteo

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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 8:55 am

That's how it should be in a closed source project, not an open source one like this, where it's supposedly all about the end user. What a joke.


I'm a as a themer understand it pretty well that if the developer taken too much account in the democracy then the project will never finish. Not all people like in the same thing.... I believe if we have made a poll about this change(not just in this Forum, but every one who use Firefox. because some people who use Firefox never heard of this Forum), the final result will be neck to neck.
Noia 2.0 theme for Firefox & Thunderbird
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FoboldFKY
 
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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 9:00 am

I've read this entire thread (he says, trying to catch his breath), and a few of the others. I registered just to make this post. My apologies upfront about the long post. But this is something I feel I need to express my opinions on. And to the authors of Winstripe; when all's said and done, I'm sure many people would have difficulty creating graphics to match your work. They just seem to like Qute more :)

Just allow me to say first of all that I love Firefox, and I greatly respect your (Ben, and <em>everyone</em> involved with both Mozilla and Firefox) work. That said...

I've been using Firefox since it was called Pheonix, and people would tell me what a dorky icon it had. I agreed. I used it back when it had that Px theme, and people would tell me it sucked. I agreed. I used it through the confusing name changes, and had to explain to people why it kept happening. I even participated in the "next month it'll be called Pheofox or Firenix or some other kinda-half-similar-but-not-quite name" jokes. But I always stuck with it because it was just so damn good. I even updated to 0.7 when it broke my then `favourite skin' (Pheonity).

Funny thing about that `favourite skin' thing; no matter which skin I try (Pheonity, Noia 2.0 Extreme, et al), I always seem to gravitate back to Qute. It's clean. It's colourful. It fits in. It works. Visually speaking, the best thing to <strong>ever</strong> happen to Firefox so far is Qute (oh, and the new icon).

If this new Winstripe is even remotely like the pictures I've seen so far, and is the new default theme, then I won't be updating until I can get Qute. That's not to say it's got nothing going for it. The... uh... hmm... the download icon is... ... nice. Oh look, I'm not going to lie; right now, it's got nothing on Qute. I fully realize this is a `work in progress', and that it could end up looking a lot better, but right now, things do not look good.

As I understand it, Firefox is about users. It's about making a browser that people want to use, one that appeals to them. Face it, most users give jack about standards compliance or complete CSS Level 2 support. All they care about is that it's easy to install, works and <em>looks good</em>.

When I see this, I'm reminded of my attempts to introduce people to Firefox, "Here, try this: I think you'll find it's much better than IE." Do you know what people said to me when they saw Px? "Uhh.. no thanks." Qute? "Yeah, sure." It was similiar enough to IE for them to be comfortable with, but clean and refreshing (something not usually attributed to a collection of digitized photon patterns). I can see the former returning with Winstripe.

I know that this is all up to Ben. It's his decision to make. I also understand that he may be feeling upset with Arvid about the email thing. But assuming that you're both mature people, I think you should just forgive each other, learn from mistakes made, and move on.

I forgot now who suggested it, but perhaps the best way forward is to include both Qute and Winstripe. Then, no one's work is wasted. The people who loves Qute to death will be happy. Users will get an up-front demonstration that Firefox is skinnable.

And I won't ever have to say "Firefox is great... once you download a decent skin." Most of the time, it's all I can do to get them to download it in the first place.

Firefox is about the users. Perhaps it may be wise to indulge them on this one :)

Sho
 
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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 9:03 am

I'll make it short and simple: As a long-time Firefox user, my personal wish is for the involved parties to seek renewed collaboration, work out any problems and keep Qute as default theme. Thanks for reading.

denis09
 
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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 9:19 am

I think the email informing Arvid was not very nicely done.
Arvids work took Firefox from being a good idea to an excellent looking browser. Ditto with regards to Thunderbird.
The new Winstripe looks ok, but is does not blend nearly as nice in Windows XP compared to Qute.
As someone already mentioned the themers should definitely look into Microsofts guidelines for icons.

Edit: Head cooled down, flame mode off.
Last edited by denis09 on June 7th, 2004, 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

MORA

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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 9:23 am

Here is a complete screenshot of the new theme. This is not going to win over IE users, in my opinion. Definitely not an improvement. :(

Image
Last edited by MORA on June 6th, 2004, 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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michaell
 
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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 9:24 am

CeleronXL wrote:
gids wrote: You're forgetting that Phoenix/Firebird/fox never was a democracy, the developer's word is final and...that's it!
That's how it should be in a closed source project, not an open source one like this, where it's supposedly all about the end user. What a joke.

However much we think it should be, it isn't. It's quite possible to have an open source program that's a completely closed project, and while Firefox isn't completely "closed", it's not as open as some people seem to think.

It is about the end user, but the target isn't geeks who read tech forums. "We" are not the target market, so it's not surprising that Ben doesn't particularly pay attention to what "we" think.

Arvid posting the private email wasn't a good thing to do. On the other hand, it's stupid for Ben to say "I, personally, am reluctant to continue a close working relationship with someone who posts our private email", given that Ben had apparently decided to end the "close working relationship" already and didn't tell Arvid until some time after.

I'm not quite sure why people's expectations of Ben and the project haven't changed though - as he has said before several times, this isn't a community-driven project, and it's not a democracy. It's his project and he'll do whatever he feels is the right thing to do to further his aim of grabbing market share from IE.
Last edited by michaell on June 6th, 2004, 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

gumpish
 
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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 9:26 am

The real problem with this being brought out into the light is that now the Mozilla team can't back down from their unilateral decision, otherwise they'll lose face and the community will be more inclined challenge them over other "executive decisions" made in the future.

They would rather fall on their own sword at this point and stick Fx with an inferior default theme, far less capable of winning IE converts, than give any indication that their "executive decisions" are anything less than final.

Frankly, the whole mess is appalling. There should be no room for ego when it comes to what's best for Fx. I work tech support and I love nothing more than walking a user through installing Fx 0.8 to escape the pitfalls of IE, but I know that with Winstripe they'll get confused and they will miss IE.

The worst part is, without Arvid's post we wouldn't have known until 0.9 was actually released that Qute was out. Shameful.

Now that Arvid has made it clear that he is willing to license Qute appropriately for inclusion in Fx, the only thing stopping it from being the default is a pissing contest the devs are intent upon winning. And they will win, it's not a democracy. They'll get their theme and would-be IE refugees everywhere will suffer.

This is a dark day for Mozilla.

Greg K Nicholson

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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 9:31 am

Sho wrote:I'll make it short and simple: As a long-time Firefox user, my personal wish is for the involved parties to seek renewed collaboration, work out any problems and keep Qute as default theme. Thanks for reading.
Hear, hear.

If the new theme ends up being as good as, or better than, Qute, that'll be great. But those are big shoes to fill.

CeleronXL

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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 9:34 am

michaell wrote:
CeleronXL wrote:
gids wrote: You're forgetting that Phoenix/Firebird/fox never was a democracy, the developer's word is final and...that's it!
That's how it should be in a closed source project, not an open source one like this, where it's supposedly all about the end user. What a joke.
It is about the end user, but the target isn't geeks who read tech forums. "We" are not the target market, so it's not surprising that Ben doesn't particularly pay attention to what "we" think.
According to the Mozilla mission statement thing, we are the target audience, even though most of the decisions made on the project seem contrary to that.

michaell wrote:I'm not quite sure why people's expectations of Ben and the project haven't changed though - as he has said before several times, this isn't a community-driven project, and it's not a democracy. It's his project and he'll do whatever he feels is the right thing to do to further his aim of grabbing market share from IE.
Sure he can do whatever he wants, but its clear that he is very extremist/purist in project development. He hasn't put anything into this browser that he didn't want there. That's not good. In software development you have to make compromises and sometimes do things that you don't necessarily like, if it's what the majority of your userbase wants.

gumpish
 
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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 9:41 am

michaell wrote:It's his project and he'll do whatever he feels is the right thing to do to further his aim of grabbing market share from IE.

With a blunder of these proportions, maybe it's time for a little regime change.

Presidents are impeached and removed from office. A ship's crew will mutiny if the captain proves incompetent...

"Take Back The Web"?

How about "Take Back Mozilla"?

Constructive feedback? You decide.

scratch

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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 9:49 am

CeleronXL wrote:According to the Mozilla mission statement thing, we are the target audience, even though most of the decisions made on the project seem contrary to that.


Mozilla mission statement != Firefox mission statement. Mozilla (the suite) is the browser designed with people like us in mind.

robdumas

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Post Posted June 6th, 2004, 9:53 am

I've looked at the proposed new theme and--forgive me--it looks rather like a few rips:
  • The Back/Fwd buttons look like green versions of Garrett LeSage's Bluecurve Back/Fwd buttons.
  • The Stop button looks like it was taken straight from the Mostly Crystal theme. Also, as much as I like that icon, an American "stop sign" won't mean the same thing in other countries; we must remember that.
  • The Home button looks like it was ripped from Internet Explorer 4 (Red roof and all!)
  • The rest look, well, rather uninspired.



May I make the suggestion that we just use the Bluecurve icon set, or at least replace the Qute throbber with the standard Bluecurve throbber (you know; the dots, arranged in a circle, spinning round and round)? After all, Bluecurve is open-source, looks great and would mean less work.
Last edited by robdumas on June 6th, 2004, 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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