Constructive criticism: Winstripe

Discuss application theming and theme development.
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esavior
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Post by esavior »

Kevin wrote:We only have a few days till 0.9, and the "evolution" I speak of is more than a quick fix, so no, I wouldn't expect any changes real soon. I expect the gnashing and the rending to happen regardless of what we do :)


Thanks for suggesting something we could be doing, I think we were beginning to run out of things to say about the theme lol. I have droped back down into the default luna theme and background and for the next couple days I will be taking screenshots of applications that look well in xp. I have to agree with kevin , I fear that what we have seen so far wont be even close to what happens at release, even if 90% of the comments are the "change is bad" kind. I hope they dont decend onto our thread >.< it has gone so well so far.
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shadytrees
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Post by shadytrees »

Quote spam.
I doubt this. I don't even remember what that icon looks like. Is it still used on Windows?

IE uses a red "X" on a page icon. Even if you can't tell that the octagon is a symbol for stop in the US, you should be able to figure out what a "X" on a red background represents.
The new skin needs to be aware that not everyone runs the default Windows themes.

It's hard to make a theme that looks good on every Windows theme. This theme will generally look good on anything close to Luna (light colors, medium contrast, etc).
One thing I could never figure out is why there isn't three icon sizes. A small size (like IE small), a medium size (perhaps what is presently the small size in Winstripe), and a large size (same as the present large).

Too much stress on theme authors?
Ditto to others, an "x in a red circle" looks too much like a certain fatal error icon in Windows, even though IE uses this metaphor.

Most users also never see a fatal error icon, especially with the advent of stable, reliable Windows OSes.
A big green triangle does not mean "movement" to me, it means "triangle". And yes, Qute is not immune either - I didn't like its back/forward buttons that much either, but I prefer them over triangles.

With that philosophy, Refresh is arrows chasing each other in a circle, the Stop icon is a "X" on an octagon, and a folder icon is two yellow abnormal polygons with one on top of another and slightly offset to the right.
However, the problem is that "blue" might mean "hate" in another country. (well, I dunno, just an example.)

Colors actually depend on humans' natural instincts. Blue is "soothing", whereas red means "danger". Culture rarely messes with colors, since it has its roots in nature.
I have a 1400x1050 over 15" screen, I can't even SEE the large icons! They should be 30 pixels tall, people.

You have an abnormal screen size. The icon sizes are targeted at 1024x768, 1152x864, and 800x600 users.
1. there seems to be too much padding around most of the nav buttons, large and small

Use the userChrome hack that was posted.
The urlbar's history, with the grey background looks bad, white would be much better. Also, the selected menu items text is the same color as the selection itself, so you can't read it, that looks pretty bad.

You're using a third-party theme. Since a theme can't take account for every possible visual style, some visual styles will look worse than others with Winstripe. Same thing occurred with Qute.
figured the authors would have a blog somewhere, but maybe not

Theme Author: http://www.kmgerich.com/
Ben Goodger: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/ben/ | http://bengoodger.com/
If you're going for "cross-platform consistencey" the best idea would be to go for halfway between Mac's "monochrome minimalism" and XP's "pastel asthetic puffiness".. currently Winstripe is doing neither.

Going halfway is providing a halfway-sucky theme for all platforms. Firefox is going to provide seperate themes for Linux, Windows, and Mac. Winstripe currently does not look like Windows XP to some people because it is still in development (see Kevin's weblog).
tmeader
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Post by tmeader »

hao2lian, I disagree with your statement that users rarely see the red circle with a white "X" icon. All you have to do is try to delete a file that might already be open in some other app, or might accessed by another app presently. It pops right up. Try renaming something that is in the same state, same thing. Try renaming something in a folder to the same name as a file which already exists (which can happen, accidently, pretty easily). Also, other apps in the past have used this same icon in boxes. AOL IM used to (not sure if they still do) use it in the popup that told you that it coudn't connect to the service.

And while I agree that XP itself crashes very infrequently, thus requiring a complete reboot... I'm fairly certain that when an app crashes, this icon is displayed. Depending on what's on peoples' computers, some apps are not the most stable things in the world.

The critical error icon is NOT a rare thing, even in the day and age of NT based OS'es... especially since it's not reserved for crashes.
iamnotniles
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Post by iamnotniles »

Indeed, although XP is very stable the red x does show up quite often on error boxes when you try to delete a file in use or delete a system folder.
Kuno
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Post by Kuno »

Kevin wrote:One thing that would be very helpful to me is if you could point out applications (maybe even post links to screenshots) that you think follow the Microsoft Icon Guidelines well and provide a great XP experience.


I don't know how to make this sound anything but a whiny smart ass comment, but I assure you it is not meant like that. I see great potential in Winstripe. Just want to make this clear. So, brace yourselves. :)

http://quadrone.org/graphics/

Not an application per se, but one of the best non-Microsoft XP style icon implementation I've seen to date. Politics aside, you can't brush off the fact that those icons are a prime example of XP icons not coming from Redmond.
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Post by chengkhoon »

An application that I think follows the WinXP icon guidelines pretty well:

Emeditor:

<img src="http://www.hiddenemotion.com/images/emeditor_screenshot.png"/>

Nice editor. Can be found at http://www.emeditor.com/
Dave88
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Post by Dave88 »

One thing that would be very helpful to me is if you could point out applications (maybe even post links to screenshots) that you think follow the Microsoft Icon Guidelines well and provide a great XP experience.



Kevin here are the Microsoft application design guidelines for XP & 98/2K
http://download.microsoft.com/download/ ... elines.exe

The WinXP one has a section on icons and how they should be done for XP but I don't know how much use of that will be to you.

The 98/2K one is bit more of text really and this is about the closest thing relating to icons
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/defau ... /ch14f.asp
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Thumper's Evil Twin
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Post by Thumper's Evil Twin »

The best example of non-Windows icons that follow the XP guidelines is FOOOD's iCandy series. Those icons are used on scores of websites and in a lot of applications going for an XP look. (it's also nice that he contributed icons to aaron's iCandy Jr Firefox theme).

FOOOD's website is here. There's a few screenshots of iCandy JR for Mozilla here.

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richardtallent
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Post by richardtallent »

Examples I can think of:
- Acronis TrueImage (actually most of their products)
- ConstantTime's Electric Shoebox
- Nero is getting there slowly
- AvantBrowser (a free, IE-based, tabbed browser, admittedly using mostly IE's icons)

Good examples of professional icon designers who have an XP flair:
- http://design.iconfactory.com/pages/win ... nicon.html (they did many of MS's icons)
- http://www.visualpharm.com/icons.html
- http://www.foood.net/index.htm (maker of the playful XP Firefox theme iCandy Jr theme)
- http://www.iconexperience.com/collections.php
- http://www.marvilla.us/portfolio.html
nIRV
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Post by nIRV »

why would you want winstripe to be aimed to a windows _xp_ os , using a badly designed ui (luna) with default colors that fiew keeps on the long run ...

please reconsider this and make it a 'windows' theme, not a 'windows _xp_ using the _blue_ _luna_ theme' ... I am myself running on w2k and wont go to XP because it doesnt suit me and if I would, the blue luna wouldnt stand one day.

that being said, this is a personnal point of view and maybe I'm the only one on earth finding the blue luna theme not so good. But then again in one year and a half, the next windows will be out.

I guess it makes senses to try to reach everyone (including the I-barly-noticed-my-cdrom-was-not-a-cup-holder type of person),

blah, just random thoughts
iamnotniles
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Post by iamnotniles »

erm because most people *DO* stick with Luna Blue.

Remember who we are aiming Firefox at.

I myself love Luna Blue as I find it calming and peaceful.
lordmedikit
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Post by lordmedikit »

nIRV wrote:why would you want winstripe to be aimed to a windows _xp_ os , using a badly designed ui (luna) with default colors that fiew keeps on the long run ...

I use the default unskinned look for WinXP and find that the (windows) icons look as nice as in any of the themes. Therefore, I see no reason why they shouldn't look nice in Firefox if they are designed to look like a windows program.

I think that the MS Office programs get a very nice matching look with Windows. Especially Office 2003 that even dynamically changes depending on your theme. However, I'm not sure that most people would like the full office look, but even so the icons are nice.
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ct^
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Post by ct^ »

Hymagumba wrote:erm because most people *DO* stick with Luna Blue.

Remember who we are aiming Firefox at.

I myself love Luna Blue as I find it calming and peaceful.


I find it revolting. I tried Silver for a while, but it got on my nerves, so now I am happily on Classic again. I'm sure many will agree. Classic can still be considered a default, especially since not everyone is on XP, so I don't think it's a very good idea to use a default theme that looks horrible on Classic. There's lots of other software that manages to ship with icons that works with both Classic and Luna, and would probably even look okay on some Gtk themes too. Why does Fx have to be an exception? For a browser that's so keen on Web standards, it's disappointing in the UI standards field.

Actually, I think I liked Modern better. It may not follow the standards but it's freaking universal. Kinda like Java. Which was the intention, I guess. I'm all for that.

I think the whole Pinstripe/Winstripe thing is silly anyway. Either you make them look exactly the same or you just use separate themes. Just my two cents.
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iamnotniles
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Post by iamnotniles »

I'm trying to stay with this theme so I can work out the things I don't like with it. Obviously there is the size and padidng issue but that's been gone over and over.

I *really* like that download icon I have to say and the printer is quite nice. It's the flatness that gets me. I'm so used to XP stuff having a slight tilt it's annoying me.

The bookmarks icon, although better than the old star, is not quite as clear as it needs to be. I would have had it sticking up out of the "book" a tad more than it is. Also the arrows need to have a little bit at the back as they could be pointing any way the way they look now.

I'm getting used to it, it's just that horrible house (although at least it's not a barn anymore) and strange reload icon I really cannot abide.
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shadytrees
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Post by shadytrees »

I find it revolting. I tried Silver for a while, but it got on my nerves, so now I am happily on Classic again. I'm sure many will agree.

Most people stick with the default three subskins of Luna because Classic is mostly rectangular and grey, which doesn't appeal to the eyes, and because patching uxtheme.dll is construed as "dangerous" and the most visible method of doing it, StyleXP, is shareware.
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