Constructive criticism: Winstripe

esavior · Post by **esavior** » June 7th, 2004, 12:15 pm

Its time to move on and start making suggestions on how to make Winstripe a better theme. The general gist of "Another default theme coming", was people didnt like it. Well for those people who did not like it what did you not like about it and how can they fix it? PLEASE if you are posting here to say bring back Qute I suggest posting your thoughts about this in http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=82385 (Another default theme coming), this thread is only for suggestions on improving the new theme. If you posted a suggestion in the last thread please post it again here, I am willing to bet they were lost in the flames. Also be specific about what you suggest, saying this theme sucks! does not count.

Update:
Another default theme coming. Has been locked, which means you do not have a alternative to post your flames. If you suddenly feel that this thread is home to your new flame, think again. Do not post anything inflammitory here, please keep on topic. I beg every potiential poster not to talk about Qute or any thoughts you have about this decision.

Post by **Nitin** » June 7th, 2004, 12:22 pm

Let me add that flames in this thread will be split and locked.

thenightfly42 · Post by **thenightfly42** » June 7th, 2004, 12:27 pm

The back/forward/reload/stop buttons seem somewhat strange to me, in that they appear to be 2-dimensional, and yet they cast a shadow.

jhirshon · Post by **jhirshon** » June 7th, 2004, 12:32 pm

Might I also suggest voting for this bug in bugzilla, to allow the proper use and selection of themes in general for Firefox, Mozilla and Tbird newbies:

http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=245802

cheers, Jonathan

steeler_fan · Post by **steeler_fan** » June 7th, 2004, 12:33 pm

Yes, the shadow has to go from the buttons. I like the reload icon (other than the shadow, if that wasn't clear), it looks pretty good. The only real issue I have is with the New Separator icon in the Bookmarks Manager. I am not actually sure what I don't like about it, but I think it is the red arrows (^ and...well, the down version of that). Maybe it is the fact that it is inside a window that it looks weird. All of the other icons look pretty good...

Can't wait to see how this theme progresses (hopefully we'll get a new version addressing some of the issues before the 0.9 release....I don't know how much work they are putting into it now though)

esavior · Post by **esavior** » June 7th, 2004, 12:35 pm

While I do like the bug, its not actually about improving Winstripe. Please keep comments to actual layout or graphical improvments of the theme.

MORA · Post by **MORA** » June 7th, 2004, 12:37 pm

The main point of criticism is that it just doesn't make sense to base a common identity on a Mac theme when the vast majority of users are running Windows. I think this blog post by djst says it all (if you just skip the first two paragraphs, which are better suited for that other thread). I broadly agree with his recommendations.

I have a feeling that sticking to UI guidelines (the link is for XP) and trying to create a single identity across multiple OS platforms are contradictionary requirements. Personally, I believe the first is more important than the latter, especially for the mainstream OS, which targets mainstream users.

tmeader · Post by **tmeader** » June 7th, 2004, 12:38 pm

I would say that a slightly angled appearance to the buttons would be nice. At least for the "Home" icon. And feel free to keep shadows, but make them fit the XP style of just a slight lower right drop shadow, not the overhead shadow you have presently.

Other than that, my only other immediate suggestions would be to 1) make the close tab button highlight when you mouse over it, just like all the other buttons do; 2) make the darkening effect on a mouseover more apparent. The only icon you can currently tell it's even happening on is the close tab button; and 3) please add a watermark style background to the download manager. That currently is the only thing I slightly miss from the previous default theme. Download manager just seems sorta empty without it now.

Thanks.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » June 7th, 2004, 12:43 pm

Even though the icons are 24x24, they still take up as much space as a 32x32 icon. Also some buttons (back/forward/etc) don't move down when pressed, while others (go, bookmarks toolbar items) do.

steeler_fan · Post by **steeler_fan** » June 7th, 2004, 12:45 pm

http://kmgerich.com/pinstripe/

I know that it is called Winstripe, and the Mac theme is called Pinstripe...but I do not see anything more than passing resemblance between the two. The Pinstripe theme looks PERFECT for the Mac...Winstripe looks pretty good with Windows, and hardly looks like Pinstripe at all. I think the idea (cross platform consistency) is a good one, we'll just have to see how it is pulled off.

Compare the buttons of Winstripe to the buttons of Pinstripe. In Pinstripe the icons (for instance the back/forward triangles) are set in an actual button. They only become "buttonized" in Winstripe when you hover over them. The reload and home icons are much different.

I think that once Winstripe is done, it will look MUCH better (look at the attention to detail on Pinstripe--I'm sure Winstripe will get that when it is finished).

tmeader · Post by **tmeader** » June 7th, 2004, 12:58 pm

I agree with Omar about the icons not moving. The only that presently register a click are close tab, Go, and bookmarks in the Bookmarks Toolbar. All icons should include the "button press" feedback.

MORA · Post by **MORA** » June 7th, 2004, 1:01 pm

steeler fan for life wrote:I think that once Winstripe is done, it will look MUCH better (look at the attention to detail on Pinstripe--I'm sure Winstripe will get that when it is finished).

Well obviously all that we can offer now is constructive criticism about a theme that, according to its makers, is 0.1 'at best'. It doesn't make sense to discard such criticism with a reference to the finished Winstripe, because the criticism itself is meant to point out the current weaknesses of the theme, not the future ones.

I agree that Winstripe looks quite different from Pinstripe (which contradicts the cross-platform consistency theory, if you ask me), and maybe it looks good on Windows in your opinion, but that has nothing to do with UI consistency, as long as the theme doesn't follow the XP design guidelines. I think it will blend in more when djst's suggestions are followed, but that will make it deviate even more from Pinstripe.

In fact, I would welcome such deviation, as I don't think there is any need to pursue this kind of cross-platform consistency in the first place. By the way: in other area's of the browser, there has been a move away from cross-platform similarity to UI-specific guidelines. See for instance the OK-Cancel sequence in Gnome and Windows, or the location of the preferences in Linux versus Windows.

esavior · Post by **esavior** » June 7th, 2004, 1:04 pm

MORA might I suggest if you interested in discussing if this change was needed, there is a perfectly good thread already full of such talk. While I agree with your first point that suggestions are always good at any level of development, please leave talk of the rest of your post back in the previous thread. As stated in my original post this thread is only for specific suggestion on how to improve the new theme.

Thumper's Evil Twin · Post by **Thumper's Evil Twin** » June 7th, 2004, 1:11 pm

Omar wrote:Even though the icons are 24x24, they still take up as much space as a 32x32 icon.

This is intentional. Icon sizes and spacing now conform to Windows standards.

MORA wrote:By the way: in other area's of the browser, there has been a move away from cross-platform similarity to UI-specific guidelines. See for instance the OK-Cancel sequence in Gnome and Windows, or the location of the preferences in Linux versus Windows.

I have to add here that a large part of the reason for Mozilla on Linux following Windows conventions was that Linux wasn't actually ready at the time. With GNOME's maturity now the XP band-aids such as the XUL filepicker are being phased out in favour of a native approach.

- Chris

MORA · Post by **MORA** » June 7th, 2004, 1:15 pm

esavior wrote:As stated in my original post this thread is only for specific suggestion on how to improve the new theme.

The specific suggestion made in my first post was that in my opinion the theme should be made more consistent with the XP design guidelines. I posted a link to djst's weblog, because I believe he posted some good practical recommendations to make that happen. You may disagree, but I consider that very constructive criticism.

My second post was a reply to what I considered to be a reply to my first post.

But it too deals with the issue of blending in the theme in the UI. The question whether to pursue a cross-platform style or a UI-specific style touches the heart of this discussion, if you ask me. Sorry, but that doesn't really seem to be out of place in this thread (maybe not practical enough, but that's why I posted that link).

On a more practical note: I agree that the space between the icons currently is too large. If that is intentional, and according to Windows standards, then in this particular case I think the Windows guidelines should not be followed.