Call for an official Mozilla Sunbird theme

[gizmo]

I have some suggestiuon for Sludwig to habe perhaps the better of his logo with the better of mark's logo :
- for the header of the calendar, try use exactly the same blue than the FF and TB's blue
- for the neck, try to enlarge it to give the impression that the bird carry the calendar (with the neck which go more to the left bottom corner)
- for the plucks, try to remove some plucks in the inside of the circle, and keep plucks on the circumference. It may be cleaner and lighter.

With this, perhaps your bird will give the impression of going from the back of the calendar (like mark's bord)

[Foxtrot]

Because "Sludwig's bird today is Mark's bird yesterday" implies that Mark's bird is now old-hat, and Sludwig's bird is the wave of the future (or something to that effect).

That's a funny way of putting it. I hope that's not what people think.

I think I just realised why Sludwig's bird scales so well, by the way. Very obvious when you see them next to each other. It's because, like the Ff and Tb logos, it has a proportionately large head.

Sludwig: If you fix the proportions of the logo, you have a winner logo. At present, I can't help think that there's something wrong with his/her neck, but I may be wrong. Keep the big head, though.

[sasquatch]

No, by "Sludwig's bird today is Mark's bird yesterday", I meant that Sludwig took what Mark had made, and improved on THE bird. Why are people so territorial? Why not just call it THE bird, and let it grow and change as a group project? Isn't that kind of what "open source" is all about? To me it is.

[DizzyWeb]

Indeed. Mark had the better logo, but it's not perfect. Sludwig took it and improved it and no everyone's bitching that "the choice is made". If things worked like that in open source development, nothing much would happen, don't you think? "That's my code, it got into the program, that's how it's going to be. Doesn't matter that you improved it." See Ben reacting like that when someone proposes a patch to something he wrote?

[Foxtrot]

Indeed. Mark had the better logo, but it's not perfect. Sludwig took it and improved it and no everyone's bitching that "the choice is made". If things worked like that in open source development, nothing much would happen, don't you think? "That's my code, it got into the program, that's how it's going to be. Doesn't matter that you improved it." See Ben reacting like that when someone proposes a patch to something he wrote?

Well said.

I've just noticed something. Mozilla.org is being redesigned, and there is a thread about it on the marketing board. Now, on the <a href="http://website-beta.mozilla.org/products/">products page</a>, there is a summary of the applications, with their respective icons listed by the application. Here's the thing, as I see it.
The sunbird logo just doesn't fit in.

I know I'm gonna be bashed at once for saying this, but the Sunbird logo looks like it was terribly misplaced. Next to the Bugzilla and Camino icons, Sunbird looks like a calendar covered by a green blob. I can't put word to what's wrong with it, but seeing the Sunbird logo accompanied by all the other Mozilla logos, I've just been convinced that Sunbird needs to either improve on the logo it has quickly, or make a new one quickly.
Please don't kill me, but it just doesn't measure up to the other logos on the site.

[sasquatch]

Two words for Foxtrot: Too busy.

[fishbert]

...I've just been convinced that Sunbird needs to either improve on the logo it has quickly, or make a new one quickly.

Yes, let's rush into a knee-jerk response of undoing what people have worked over in the 60-70 pages of this thread.

And, actually, you were convinced quite a while ago that mark's Sunbird's logo isn't good. Don't try to pass your opinion as new-found, and don't try to incite an irrational "we must change it" panic just because you've disagreed with the logo vote.
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic ... 028#660028
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic ... 666#695666
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic ... 393#696393

The sunbird logo just doesn't fit in.
Please don't kill me, but it just doesn't measure up to the other logos on the site.

Many, many times in the previous pages of this thread, logo submissions (including the contest winning current logo) were compared side-by-side with the Firefox and Thunderbird logos. On the page which was made to show the 'final' submissions for voting, each set was represented right next to the Firefox and Thunderbird logos. That's what people were presented with before actually casting a vote for any design. And just to remind you, most people in here thought that Mark's Sunbird logo fit in quite well with them.

Plus, they're not even using the default Sunbird logo on that products page you're linking to, and on top of that, it's grouped with the Camino and Bugzilla logos (which look like they don't belong with the Firefox and Thunderbird logos themselves), so it's probably good that "the sunbird logo just doesn't fit in" with those two.

[Foxtrot]

Yes, let's rush into a knee-jerk response of undoing what people have worked over in the 60-70 pages of this thread.

I'm not asking anyone to undo anything. I'm saying that the logo presented on the page didn't, in my opinion, fit in.

And, actually, you were convinced quite a while ago that mark's Sunbird's logo isn't good. Don't try to pass your opinion as new-found, and don't try to incite an irrational "we must change it" panic just because you've disagreed with the logo vote.

I'm sorry if I made this impression. No, I never quite liked the logo, but I was coming to terms with that it had won, and that it was there to stay. After seeing it on that page, it struck me how different the art was from everything else. I suggested, based on the impression that I got, that a change be made to it. Either that someone improved it, or that someone replaced it. This shouldn't be new to anyone. Before reaching the 1.0 stage, we are bound to have new submissions, and improvements are bound to be made, simply because of the scope of time between now and the release. As people have pointed out to me, look at the Firefox logo.

they're not even using the default Sunbird logo on that products page you're linking to

Then that should be changed as soon as possible if that page is to replace the current Mozilla.org page. Alternatively, they could remove Sunbird from the spot until it reaches a higher level of completion.

it's grouped with the Camino and Bugzilla logos (which look like they don't belong with the Firefox and Thunderbird logos themselves), so it's probably good that "the sunbird logo just doesn't fit in" with those two.

That's your opinion. My opinion is that in its natural environment, the Sunbird logo shouldn't stand out as different.

Two words for Foxtrot: Too busy.

Huh?

[fishbert]

Alternatively, they could remove Sunbird from the spot until it reaches a higher level of completion.

It's in the 'Mozilla Projects' section.... not 'Mozilla Products'.
And with all the clammoring for Sunbird to get its own project page (as opposed to a sub-page of the Calendar extension) and its own forum topic, you've gotta be one of the only people to have voiced an opinion in the past 4-5 months that Sunbird should not be in the spotlight more.

it's grouped with the Camino and Bugzilla logos (which look like they don't belong with the Firefox and Thunderbird logos themselves), so it's probably good that "the sunbird logo just doesn't fit in" with those two.

That's your opinion. My opinion is that in its natural environment, the Sunbird logo shouldn't stand out as different.

And I'm saying that Camino and Bugzilla are not Sunbird's "natural environment".

[sirchode]

Mark's bird actually has a body.

The style of Sludwig's logo seems to fit with the existing logos, yes, but it just looks weird. Two beautiful wings and a large, oversized head plopped onto it.

Mark's logo is fantastic, and I think Sludwig has a good concept going. I feel like if Sludwig could keep it more in line with what already exists, he would also have a fantastic logo, regardless of whether or not it replaces Mark's winning logo. Maybe the two could collaborate? Who knows, let's all just get along again.

[scratch]

here's how I see it: Mark's logo fits in with the FF and TB icons better than Jeff's or Suslik's, but sludwig's update of Mark's logo (and that's exactly what it is, it's not a new logo) fits it even better. and yes, this is how open source works. sludwig's version still isn't perfect though, and it'd be even better of mark or suslik or jeff or somebody wants to try to make an improvement on *that*. yes, the choice has been made, so now we're working on improving that choice. and that was the plan from the beginning: after the choice was made, the icon would still be improved further.

[fishbert]

here's how I see it: Mark's logo fits in with the FF and TB icons better than Jeff's or Suslik's, but sludwig's update of Mark's logo (and that's exactly what it is, it's not a new logo) fits it even better. and yes, this is how open source works. sludwig's version still isn't perfect though, and it'd be even better of mark or suslik or jeff or somebody wants to try to make an improvement on *that*. yes, the choice has been made, so now we're working on improving that choice. and that was the plan from the beginning: after the choice was made, the icon would still be improved further.

I'd call it more of a branch than an update. This whole development process isn't necessarily linear.

[sludwig]

There has been much discussion about the proportions of the head/wings. Well, the bird is initially based on some real sunbird - and sunbirds are relatively small, the smaller a bird is, the larger is it's head in relation to the rest of the body... add the large bill that those birds have for drinking nectar you get this look that some don't like. But of course there are different sunbirds as well as there is artistic freedom so yes, I've thought about a more aesthetically driven approach from the beginning on, but have not yet tried it out.

As for the different quality of small-scale versions, basically two things play into here. First is the 'natural' contrast (in color/hue as well as brightness) between different features that is important but could also be replaced by additional contour lines. Second it's important for something like an icon/logo to have relatively simple and large features. The first point is very obvious in my second version of the head, that lacks the strong highlight and the asociated stronger contrast of the first head, which scales not quite as good as the first version. But apart from this the whole 16px discussion is really overrated here. If you have a complex icon like this you will almost always have to at least alter the smallest versions on a per pixel basis by hand - look at the firefox icon which would not scale well to a 16px version and therefore has a special supposedly completely handmade version.

As for the outcome of all of this, we will see. I would really like to see sunbird having an icon that better matches tb/ff style, especially if it gets on the frontpage but personally I would not have a problem if my version is not considered either, at least I have a nice icon for optional/personal use, although I would not maintain a patch like suslik does (I just don't see enough value in this; a simple .png/.ico set should be fine).

During the next few days I won't have time to work on the logo, but I will definitely look into the suggestions given.

Sönke

[Greg K Nicholson]

The Sunbird icon shown on the website-beta products page is the rotated version of Mark's logo (looking down at the calendar); the one used everywhere else is non-rotated (looking to the right towards the calendar).

I personally prefer the rotated version, but it's not the official logo.

[suslik]

Mark's logo fits in with the FF and TB icons better than Jeff's or Suslik's.

No matter how many times ppl say it, it still doesn't make it any more true

Just to put my soul in peace, can you elaborate on how exactly it actually fits?

Examples: Drawing style; Choice of colors; "temperature" of color; Fluffy\soft vs hard edge ("traditional" vector) drawing; ... just give me any sign of fit.

It won because:
1. It does not use the same colors.
2. It has a calendar incorporated.
and maybe
5. Some ppl hate my guts
8. Jeff's logo wasn't finished.

Make sure you don't confuse it with "fit"

EDIT: Imho, Sludwigs fast attempt has more fit that Mark's. (I'm sure Sludwig is going to castrated now, after my endosement sorry)