Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Discussion about official Mozilla Firefox builds
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michaell522
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by michaell522 »

k3m3 wrote:Why not make the entire fox spouting flames instead of just the tail?

I'm trying to think of a reasoned way of disagreeing with this, but.. er... no.

patrickjdempsey wrote:
"I have to admit that doing a design project at both this level of magnitude and also at this level of transparency is kind of uncommon."

But, amazingly awesome to watch unfold Alex! Anyone who has ever attempted to do artwork for a public arena

Indeed. I once attempted to manage the design of a logo for a much much smaller scale project, and had a lot of difficulty reconciling the views of 5 people and a designer. I don't know how many people are following this (500? 5000?), but trying to deal with this amount of varied feedback on a continuous basis through the process is crazy. But crazy in an awesome Mozilla way. :)
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by malliz »

Having worked in an allied field for many years and seen experts at work I can say that if you are wise then you just use this type of "What do you think" type of exercise to make sure 99% don't say YUCK!

After all an Elephant is a mouse designed by committee.
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by patrickjdempsey »

malliz, in general I agree with you... the committee design process can lead to something pretty far from awesome... especially if the committee is made of up executives and market analysts and board memebers and people who in general wouldn't know a good design if you smacked them in the face with it, and they are leading the designers by a noose. I think if you have a team of designers getting feed-back from OTHER designers, especially whom have no financial interest but only want it to look as badass as possible... I think that's a pretty cool process. It's not like the things we say here have the weight as members of say a board of directors who each have partial ownership in the company and can fire the designers if they don't incorporate one of our ideas.

I think if you look at the television show LOST, the writers actually looked at forums online to see what people were thinking and saying about their show and used that as a spring-board to push harder. Sure, it's television, you expect it to be cheesy and terrible, but looking at the forums forced the writers to be a little less lazy and actually try to outwit their fans, which has really pushed that show to an exceptional level. I think Alex and the team are trying to do something similar... raise the bar a little bit... see what people's reactions are on a per-iteration basis and figure out how to take all those tiny criticisms to make something totally slick. An individual designer might make the same observations over a period of months of looking at something and tweaking it that dozens of designers and critics can make in a few weeks. The fact that many members of the larger community are educated and working artists and designers only raises that bar even higher.
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by faaborg »

Note: this is a draft icon rendering for Firefox 3.5, subsequent iterations will be posted every 24 hours or so. Also note that while these drafts appear with numbers and in a chronological order, each draft experiments with a variety of different ideas as we try things out to see what they look like. It's better not to think of these as a formal sequence, but rather a series of experimentations to explore the overall design space.

Also please note that the tail (with a current flat color) literally hasn't been painted yet, this is a work in process as we try to define the correct shape for the tail. Once we get that figured out the tail will get detailing with texture, color and lighting.

Image

The icon is being rendered by Anthony Piraino at the Iconfactory. The design has been influenced by a conceptual sketch by Jon Hicks, and a conceptual render by Stephen Horlander.
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malliz
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by malliz »

@patrickjdempsey I am not talking about a television show. I am talking about a professional design decision that Mozilla will have to live with for some considerable time. I am not too sure what your graphics art background is but my old boss who was a professional graphic designer and who I worked along side for 18 years would laugh his head off if I described the amateur hour process that you describe. Sure it's OK to run Ideas past people to get an idea if your headed in the right direction. But would you like your next house to be designed in the way you are talking about? Personally I would like someone to grab the logo and go slightly radical what I am seeing at the moment is not a large enough change to even be called an update. And trust me I have been involved with the evolution of more Company Logo changes than you have had hot dinners.
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by James »

Just how radical of a change were you thinking of?

It is interesting that Japan, China and Taiwan did cute way of promoting Firefox, yet would that cute anime style be accepted in say US/Canada ?
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by malliz »

Definitely not cute :( Maybe it's time for a much more stylised image. Move away from the realistic Fox and Globe to more of a symbol. Say just A blue ball surrounded by a tail of fire or even just a circle of fire without the globe. After all that's what will happen if you evolve the Firefox Icon far enough. Sometimes a leap is better than small steps
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by dao-g »

Why is the globe getting brighter again at the bottom? Doesn't make much sense, I think, nor does it look great.
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by faaborg »

Why is the globe getting brighter again at the bottom? Doesn't make much sense, I think, nor does it look great.


Hey Dao, that should be gone in the next iteration. It's a technique used to turn the gloss up to 11, but introducing another light source doesn't really work given the placement of the Firefox.
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by faaborg »

Here are some answers to a particular question that came in about how refreshing a brand can be fraught with peril.

So what are people supposed to say if they actually prefer the previous one for aesthetic reasons? Newer is not automatically better. If you are going to dismiss all “I still prefer the original” as being afraid of change, you’ve tilted the playing field rather a lot.

Remember what happened to Orangina [edit: Tropicana]. Are we really going to get more people downloading or using Firefox, or will they really have better feelings towards it, because we’ve refreshed the icon? What are we actually trying to achieve here? The current version is a really nice icon. Changing it just means that some people will go “huh, it’s changed”, and other people will not like the new version. Whether that’s because they are “afraid of change” or not is irrelevant, and doesn’t stop them not liking it. You are going to find it really hard to have an unambiguous win here IMO.


To clarify, while I was saying that similarities to the previous icon were driving positive comments, the implication wasn't that we were planning on ignoring those comments, but that we were in fact shifting the creative direction for the tail. It was a little ambiguous (since the two variables being discussed were similarity to the old design and if the tail appeared threatening) and I should have written a clearer statement.

To answer some of the other questions specifically:

what are people supposed to say if they actually prefer the previous one for aesthetic reasons?


If people have that opinion then they are absolutely encouraged to comment. We are trying to get a good read on people's general opinions by engaging on pretty much every communications channel that the Mozilla community uses. We are also looking into running some studies on mechanical turk so that we can get feedback from a mainstream non-self selected audience.

Remember what happened to [Tropicana].


For those not familiar, PepsiCo deployed new packaging for Tropicana orange juice, and then had to reverse the change due to strong public outcry from their most loyal customers. From the public comments, it's clear that there are some really passionate orange juice drinkers out there.

Image

The new design was done by Arnell, the same firm that created the refreshed Pepsi logo, which for people in the Mozilla community will likely look kind of familiar. Those interested in what a million dollars in brand design literally buys you, should check out the (potentially fictitious) document Breathtaking Design Strategy.

Image

But to answer your question: yes, I think a disaster similar to what happened to Tropicana is something we need to be really concerned about. In particular we are finding ourselves in a similar environment, where we both have extremely passionate and loyal members of our community (and users of Firefox), and people clearly have a very strong emotional connection to Firefox. I totally understand that one must wear white gloves before touching the Firefox icon. The icon has become more than just a global brand, but something that our passionate community considers sacred.

So, assuming that we don't want to just adopt a strategy of being frozen in fear, how do we avoid a Tropicana scenario? I think the only way to make sure we are avoiding that type of situation is to make sure that we have buy in from our community and passionate Firefox fans for the changes we are considering. To that end we've been extremely public with posting the creative brief, design iterations, and feedback. Mozilla is in a somewhat unique position to run a completely transparent design project (as opposed to relying on things like focus groups and NDAs, even though those things are really considerably more comfortable for designers).

So far I honestly haven't seen a massive amount of public outcry (much to my genuine surprise given the subject matter), and my impression is that people generally understand both the direction we want to take the icon, and the reasons we feel refreshing a product brand is important.

You are going to find it really hard to have an unambiguous win here IMO.


Given that I still have people really mad at me for the awesome bar, I'm getting increasingly used to what it feels like to work on deploying an ambiguous win. Personally I'm hoping we have more ambiguous wins in the future, because they are still wins, and being frozen in time really isn't an option in an extremely competitive marketplace.
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by toods »

Iteration 5

I believe the 'tail' on this one has just about got the right balance. It's lost that scary 'claw-like' effect that was a concern.

Great work.

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Don Corleone
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by Don Corleone »

faaborg wrote:So far I honestly haven't seen a massive amount of public outcry (much to my genuine surprise given the subject matter)...

Did you consider the possibility that they don't actually care about this? When you started this thread you had one lukewarm reply, before deciding to go ahead. Here you had none at all. In the same time period on your blog, reactions were muted.

However it is dressed up, changing a tail on an icon is not painting the Mona Lisa.

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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by supernova_00 »

Don Corleone wrote:When you started this thread you had one lukewarm reply, before deciding to go ahead.
In my defense, since it was my comment, I really like how the icon is coming around. Not to say I still don't feel that icons for needed toolbar buttons wouldn't have had a greater impact but this is a nice refresh for the icon. And I stated in one of Alex's blog posts today that I really like iteration 5 especially after it gets the shading, texture and lighting applied to it.
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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by patrickjdempsey »

Alex, I think the shape is coming along nicely! The hair tufts are no longer menacing and def border on the side of "cute" which I think will be offset by the shading... too cute might turn some users off... not everyone wants to be seen with a cartoon character browser. ;)

The Pepsi icon is very similar to the Seamonkey, and also bears a striking resemblence to the Obama campaign logo... in fact I found myself having a knee-jerk reaction to it the first time I saw it... I actually thought for a moment Pepsi was supporting Obama. Ironically, the last time Pepsi had a major logo reboot was in 1991, amidst a war in Iraq, and shortly before the election of Bill Clinton. At that time however, I think Pepsi was trying to keep up with the fact that Back to the Future 2 had featured "futurized" versions of Pepsi products, which made the current designs look dated. They used aspects of the Back to the Future design and even took their font straight from Star Trek the Next Generation... a logical choice since their tag-line through the 80's had been "Choice of a New Generation". I really think that Pepsi wants to be the "hip" soda, and they try very hard at enforcing that image... and having their logo reference pieces of popular culture going on around us is a very interesting way of attempting to forge a connection with their consumer. Ironically, the only thing "new" we gain out of the new Pepsi logo is a reversion to formulas of Pepsi and Mountain Dew similar to their pre-high-fructose-corn-syrup hey-days.

The new Firefox logo will come packaged with a product that actually offers not only better performance but new features and some interface changes. I know some people have said 3.5 Beta 4 doesn't feel that different, but I don't wonder if those are people who have been using 3.1 Betas all this time? Going back and forth from 3.0 to 3.5b4, it feels different. I really feel like 3.5 will be the New Firefox that 3.0 should have been... its a much better refined product IMO, but I'm sure it only got there due to the input of thousands of users and testers. One of the things I really like about this latest iteration of the logo is that it is fun. The new browser will be fun (if they can fix it from hanging in restarts!) it's sheer speed and more integrated features makes it fun. I'm hoping the very long beta period will have given add-on's developers ample time to ready their products and that the release of 3.5 will see more add-ons available than the initial release of 3.0, which was a frustrating point for some users... that alone should make the new release more "fun".

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Re: Thinking about Refreshing the Firefox Icon

Post by ehume »

Don't forget this guy:

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Last edited by ehume on May 21st, 2009, 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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