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Does Fx 22 nightly look too large?

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malliz
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Post Posted March 16th, 2013, 3:13 pm

Meph wrote:I think you're just overreacting because you're not used to the change. :)

Obvious it doesn't effect you otherwise you wouldn't be doing the Mozilla apologist dialogue.
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Post Posted March 16th, 2013, 4:04 pm

So what is the problem exactly? (Other than the blurry graphics, which larger icons could be created for like IE (except favicons)). It seems to be working in the correct manner. If you want a larger dpi, you want it for a reason. Why would the UI be excluded from this? If you don't want things larger don't increase your DPI. I fail to the see the problem what so ever. You already have a workaround if you want to change it back to the incorrect behavior.

The only fix needed here is larger icons for higher dpi settings.

streetwolf

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Post Posted March 16th, 2013, 4:41 pm

I can't use a smaller DPI as I have a 24" monitor and text is way too small everywhere. This is why I have to set it at 120 DPI. Every other program manages to produce text and graphics just fine with 120 DPI. So why can't the 'new' Fx22? No... it wants to blow everything up 125%, Chrome and Content, causing not only large text and blurry graphics but also wrecks layouts on pages not to mention supersize everything on the top (toolbars, buttons, etc).

The 'old' Fx with it's text zoom and full page zoom let's me set a global text zoom of 125%. This way text is set to 120DPI without affecting graphics. In some cases I use a combination of text zoom and full page zoom to achieve a good look. I use the add-on NoSquint to do all of this.

Using the OS DPI is like using Fx Full Page Zoom of 125% on every page. If you like text on steroids and blurry graphics then so be it.

There is no telling if the pref will remain. Mozilla might want to force this on us.

Have you doubters even tried it on a 24" monitor or larger?????

Sure... maybe all the browsers do it this way and Mozilla felt it had to do it the same way. Well... they are wrong. They got it right as it was. Maybe on a Surface Pro Fx 22 looks good but not on a desktop PC with a large monitor.

If only you could see what I see you would be convinced.
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Post Posted March 16th, 2013, 9:04 pm

120DPI looks really awkward to me. Even on a 1080p 23.6" Monitor. But I have to admit, Firefox looks much better in the fonts department compared to both Chrome and IE. Opera performs similar to Firefox, but that might go away when they switch to Chromium. I do understand the complaint with the interface. Everything looks Fisher Price and blurry.

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Post Posted March 17th, 2013, 2:15 am

streetwolf wrote:I'm not sure but I think the patch was originally thought out to provide better looking output on tablets and the like. It seems like it worked for you but for desktop users it doesn't fair as well.

The device is irrelevant. Does your 24 inch display have a higher actual hardware DPI than normal? Do you have it positioned on your desk further away than a standard distance from your eyes?

malliz wrote:
Meph wrote:I think you're just overreacting because you're not used to the change. :)

Obvious it doesn't effect you otherwise you wouldn't be doing the Mozilla apologist dialogue.

I've been using the high DPI setting for months now. The only thing I don't like about it is that it changes my resolution from 1080p to 720p, even though some Web sites expect a 1366 x 766 resolution. But that's more an issue that Web developers need to address.

Using the OS DPI is like using Fx Full Page Zoom of 125% on every page. If you like text on steroids and blurry graphics then so be it.

So let me get this straight: you preferred a 100% even though you had Windows set at a 125% DPI? Why don't you try using Windows at 100% again and see if you can get used to it. You may prefer it. :)

Sure... maybe all the browsers do it this way and Mozilla felt it had to do it the same way. Well... they are wrong. They got it right as it was. Maybe on a Surface Pro Fx 22 looks good but not on a desktop PC with a large monitor.

No. All browsers do not do this; only IE7 and above do. Chrome and Opera do not support different DPI settings, so Windows automatically blurs and stretches them, which looks ugly.

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Post Posted March 17th, 2013, 2:47 am

JayhawksRock wrote:
SaphirJD wrote:What a pitty, Thanks to Aurora and Nightly i have found back to my enthusiasm about Firefox... and now the Devs do everything to scare people again away.....

Apparantly you have never tested Alpha 1 builds before. I hope you are not relying on 22 as your work browser. Every day there will be something broken and they are not always secure.


Of course not, and no, of ocurse i have run in the past also already Nightly Builds, it is just that the devs are so sure about that dpi change - I stay with Firefox Beta and Firefox Aurora for normal usage. Compared to Nightly so far i never had problems with Beta or Aurora ;)

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Post Posted March 17th, 2013, 4:35 am

Mark342 wrote:
streetwolf wrote:This change, IMO, wasn't given much thought. IE10 does not rely on the OS DPI at least for content based on side by side comparisons of Fx22 and IE10. While IE10's UI is big I don't think it is because it is using the OS DPI.


You are wrong.

Here is a side by side comparison of Nightly and IE10 with DPI set to "Smaller" ( 100%, the default ).
http://i.imgur.com/u5kQGFT.png

Here is another side by side comparison with the same settings, but with DPI set to "Medium" (125%)
http://i.imgur.com/LiymOkk.png

Both browsers were using their now default settings in each test.
That means layout.css.devPixelsPerPx set to -1 and no modifications to zooming.

As you can see, Firefox and IE10 now act the same way.
They scale both fonts and graphics according to the DPI setting.
This scaling affects the UI and content the same way.

The previous way was most definitely wrong.

The only issue I see is they do not yet have higher resolution images for high DPI modes so the graphics in the UI get blurry.
They are already aware of this, and it is being rectified.


The thing is if you set Windows DPI to 150 but check "use Windows XP style scaling" then Chrome and IE will respect that setting and won't blow everything up. Firefox ignores it and scales with the blown up graphics anyways. I use NoSquint and only want the page content larger, not the UI.

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Post Posted March 17th, 2013, 4:43 am

StinDaWg wrote:I use NoSquint and only want the page content larger, not the UI.

And there is an added dimension to this preference, may I add.

It's IMPOSSIBLE that a single zoom setting caters for ALL the websites that we (who use zoom regularly) browse. So a 150% blow-up will not only make everything look blurry, one STILL has to customise the precise zoom settings for individual websites based on screen size, screen resolution, optical acuity and myopic technical web design.


Do the devs plan to vectorise the UI?

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Post Posted March 17th, 2013, 6:06 am

Guys, there is no way your going to convince me that what I see on my screen, with the DPI patch, is acceptable. The ability to change DPI in Windows was primarily to address readability on large screen monitors. The normal DPI of 96 is just to small. Think of this... how come Window apps all scale correctly? I don't have any apps that produce over sized text or blurry images. Yes, at one time many apps never took into account anything above 96DPI but that has been corrected for the most part. Some older apps may still have text problems at 120DPI.

For the record I don't like the way IE10 does there thing either which I guess Fx is trying to imitate. IE10 also produces a larger chrome although their icons and such are clearer than Fx. Many Web pages also have blurry graphics which makes web pages look cheap and unprofessional. Think of each Web page as a Window app that does not take into account the DPI setting and serves up low rez images. This is like my older Window apps I mentioned above. Web pages need to become more DPI aware and serve up text and graphics the way Windows Explorer does or any other Window component and most modern apps do.

Web design has not met the challenge of large screen monitors. It probably isn't an easy thing to do having to keep different size graphics for different DPI's. The irony is that Fx seems to be concentrating it's efforts away from the desktop to mobile devices which have smaller displays. I don't have a Surface Pro to see how things look on it but my guess it's a lot better than what I see on my desktop monitor.

As I've mentioned I use 120 DPI and use NoSquint to make pages look acceptable. I set a default of 125% which makes text readable without blurry graphics. Yes, this sometimes screws up some pages but in these cases I set a custom NoSquint profile where I might lower the text percentage or even use text zoom and full page zoom together. Playing with the zoom values usually get's me to the point of a good looking page. However graphics might be blurry in cases like these but I only have two sites I have to do this with.

No I can't use 96DPI as someone mentioned. It's way to small.

Someone mentioned here that only IE and now Fx use the OS DPI value to scale. You'd think Google Chrome would have done this if it was such a great thing. Perhaps Google thinks like I do that using the OS DPI just makes things worse.

I realize the patch is in alpha and maybe Fx is planning to fix the oversized Chrome graphics and the blurry graphics in web pages. But until this happens, if ever, the way firefox works without using the OS DPI is better for me in conjunction with NoSquint. I hope they keep the new pref around so I can use it to make Fx work like it used to until they get things right with using the OS DPI which IMO they never will on a large screen, large DPI monitor.
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Post Posted March 17th, 2013, 6:27 am

StinDaWg wrote:The thing is if you set Windows DPI to 150 but check "use Windows XP style scaling" then Chrome and IE will respect that setting and won't blow everything up. Firefox ignores it and scales with the blown up graphics anyways. I use NoSquint and only want the page content larger, not the UI.

This is an interesting point. Has it been brought up in the bug?

streetwolf

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Post Posted March 17th, 2013, 6:36 am

XP scaling is provided as a means to accommodate programs that are not DPI aware. Ideally all programs should be DPI aware and this option should be left unchecked. However, if you do this you will come across many apps that all of a sudden will have fuzzy text. CCleaner is such a program. Fx appears to have DPI awareness because it doesn't become fuzzy.
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Post Posted March 17th, 2013, 8:15 am

StinDaWg wrote:The thing is if you set Windows DPI to 150 but check "use Windows XP style scaling" then Chrome and IE will respect that setting and won't blow everything up.

Well that's different. That's a bug that needs to be reported.

quirK wrote:It's IMPOSSIBLE that a single zoom setting caters for ALL the websites that we (who use zoom regularly) browse. So a 150% blow-up will not only make everything look blurry, one STILL has to customise the precise zoom settings for individual websites based on screen size, screen resolution, optical acuity and myopic technical web design.

That's something that Web authors need to fix; not Mozilla. The solution to blurry images is not to zoom out.

Guys, there is no way your going to convince me that what I see on my screen, with the DPI patch, is acceptable. The ability to change DPI in Windows was primarily to address readability on large screen monitors. The normal DPI of 96 is just to small. Think of this... how come Window apps all scale correctly? I don't have any apps that produce over sized text or blurry images. Yes, at one time many apps never took into account anything above 96DPI but that has been corrected for the most part. Some older apps may still have text problems at 120DPI.

That's because you're using the 125% scaling, which has a strange quirk where it doesn't scale everything.

Web design has not met the challenge of large screen monitors. It probably isn't an easy thing to do having to keep different size graphics for different DPI's. The irony is that Fx seems to be concentrating it's efforts away from the desktop to mobile devices which have smaller displays.

High DPI displays exist on both desktops and mobiles, so that doesn't really make a difference. :) Either way, Mozilla are motivated to having high-DPI icons on desktop Firefox's UI. Shorlander will be working on them soon, so there's no point complaining about them. I doubt high-DPI support will be uplifted to Aurora until the icons are ready.

Someone mentioned here that only IE and now Fx use the OS DPI value to scale. You'd think Google Chrome would have done this if it was such a great thing. Perhaps Google thinks like I do that using the OS DPI just makes things worse.

Nope. They're working on it right now and they've almost finished.
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issue ... ?id=149881

streetwolf wrote:XP scaling is provided as a means to accommodate programs that are not DPI aware. Ideally all programs should be DPI aware and this option should be left unchecked. However, if you do this you will come across many apps that all of a sudden will have fuzzy text. CCleaner is such a program. Fx appears to have DPI awareness because it doesn't become fuzzy.

By the way, are you aware that you can enable the XP scaling for particular apps by right-clicking on the shortcut for it, going to properties and the compatibility tab and ticking "disable display scaling on high DPI display settings"? :)

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Post Posted March 17th, 2013, 6:53 pm

streetwolf wrote:Think of this... how come Window apps all scale correctly?


Can you EXPLAIN what the hell you're talking about when you say this?

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Post Posted March 17th, 2013, 7:17 pm

Pixel wrote:
streetwolf wrote:Think of this... how come Window apps all scale correctly?


Can you EXPLAIN what the hell you're talking about when you say this?



I don't see oversized text or icons anywhere in Windows except Fx22 and IE10. How come Windows can't scale these two just like it does every other application or Windows component?

Please don't be so adversarial in your posts. It's your problem if you don't understand me.
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Post Posted March 17th, 2013, 10:57 pm

streetwolf wrote:I don't see oversized text or icons anywhere in Windows except Fx22 and IE10. How come Windows can't scale these two just like it does every other application or Windows component?


How does this make sense? If you're using a higher dpi and NOT seeing oversized text then it would not be working correctly. How does Firefox scale differently from other applications?

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