MozillaZine

Australis customization (or lack of thereof)

Discussion about official Mozilla Firefox builds
Ngamer01

User avatar
 
Posts: 1025
Joined: November 3rd, 2007, 8:37 am
Location: Louisiana

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 9:20 am

Just complaining or trying to come up with justified, reasonable critique isn't enough anymore.

We may have to resort to spinning to cause a backlash. If the mainstream get of a hold "Mozilla incorporating DRM into Firefox by restricting customization with Australis", we could get Mozilla to back-peddle especially if they want to keep support from digital right advocacy sites that support open internet, including people's rights to customize Firefox how they see fit even if Mozilla doesn't like customizations now. 8-[

The way of things are going, they might as well go closed source since they are fastly moving away from what established them in the first place. ](*,)

ferongr

User avatar
 
Posts: 537
Joined: February 16th, 2011, 9:51 am

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 9:31 am

Ngamer01 wrote:"Mozilla incorporating DRM into Firefox by restricting customization with Australis"


What the hell.

Let's not trivialize what DRM is and the restrictions it imposes on users by misusing the acronym for unrelated issues. Never mind the fact that no decent news site would go with such ridiculous headline.
What Falken giveth, the tōge taketh away.

Srap
 
Posts: 290
Joined: July 18th, 2012, 11:57 am

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 9:49 am

ferongr wrote:What the hell.

Let's not trivialize what DRM is and the restrictions it imposes on users by misusing the acronym for unrelated issues. Never mind the fact that no decent news site would go with such ridiculous headline.

Do not forget that there are but a few descent news sites, and the remaining 95% would be happy to jump on this even if parts of the complain are utter b*llshit.

I also think that this case needs some serious feedback from a wider community (something similar to the recent x64 case), but using words like DRM would make us the bad guys in the end, when someone explains there is nothing DRM related.
Even if it's true that Australis would destroy one of FF's main strengths, namely customisation, bad wording would bring little to no result.

On topics, I have a feeling that Personas (yeah, I know, Lightweight Themes) would be completely useless for Minimalis, thereis simply no space where it would be visible. Even now, many are only enjoyable when one has the menu bar and bookmarks bar on (like this one).
Sorry for my bad English. Even if there wasn't a mistake.

WaltS48

User avatar
 
Posts: 4427
Joined: May 7th, 2010, 9:38 am
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 10:17 am

sabret00the wrote:
WLS wrote:
sabret00the wrote:I notice that they're censoring correspondence to the firefox-dev mailing list despite sending us there.


Moderating, just like they do on these forums.

The main reason the mailing list was created.

Gavin's blog » announcing the firefox-dev mailing list

I posted at 0940 GMT this morning, it's now 1520 GMT. I'd say after five hours it stops looking like moderating and beings to look like censorship. Which is odd since I merely made a request for some data to support the decision.

There was a blog post on the Planet a while back, where it highlighted the growing discontent within the community based on the perception that the community was less involved in decisions and that transparency had become a second class citizen of Mozilla's principles. I'll be the first to admit that the community, at least here hasn't made it easy by creating a hostile reception to the Mozilla staff. However, it's not without truth that the disconnect is growing and a decision regarding customisation of the browser without any public conversation or support data is exactly the type of thing which Mozilla was opposed to.

It's not hugely unexpected, as I remember reading a post by a developer where he stated that the majority of the UX staff don't read the mozilla.dev.usability mailing list due to the signal-to-noise ratio which in reality is user feedback. I find it pretty disappointing that the very users they're supposed to represent are considered as such.

Just for the record, my message that required five hours of moderation was
Regarding bug 860814 ([meta] Australis Customization - Milestone 3 - User Migration), is there research data available to demonstrate that there are more users who "render their browsers un-usable with their customizations" than there are users who customise their browser's UI and retain usability?

Amusingly, I'm not against the Australis design. However I am interested in how the decision was made, what are the defining factors and what other factors have been considered? I believe that users in general dislike change and for some changes, you must push on. But that's in regards to design. That doesn't explain why users are being prevented from reorganising their buttons? I know of a few users, who aren't particularly tech-savvy, but don't feel that default Firefox is a good fit for them. After all, we've had clothes a lot longer than we've had browsers and we don't make clothes in one-size-fits-all. As a long term user of Firefox, and a long term advocate of Mozilla, I don't think it's a log to be given the opportunity to understand a decision in logical terms whether I agree or disagree with it.


Sorry, I don't think your message follows the intent of the new mailing list. Nothing constructive

firefox-dev is a new list whose goal is to offer an easy, transparent venue for getting constructive, Firefox-related development work done.


Nothing constructive, and your type of off-topic message was one of the reasons the mailing list was created.

Given the size and diversity of the Firefox user base and community, no moderation means that inevitably there are posts from users seeking support, abusive posts from people upset with our decisions, or off-topic/bike shed threads that dragged on forever and didn’t end up anywhere useful.


Your opinion probably varies.
Linux Desktop - AMD Athlon(tm) II X3 455 3.3GHz | 8.0GB RAM | GeForce GT 630
Windows Notebook - AMD A8 7410 2.2GHz | 6.0GB RAM | AMD Radeon R5

Drumbrake

User avatar
 
Posts: 1177
Joined: February 14th, 2011, 2:34 am

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 10:26 am

As objections to their moves are posted on bugzilla,the standard reply is "please do not spam the bug,the place for this discussion is on the firefox-dev mailing list" or something like that:since we have now evidence that comments are not welcome there either,we now know for a fact that they can't take even sensible,legitimated criticism in any form,wherever is posted.

patrickjdempsey

User avatar
 
Posts: 23734
Joined: October 23rd, 2008, 11:43 am
Location: Asheville NC

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 11:00 am

LoudNoise wrote:This is amusing:
Mike Conley (:mconley) wrote:Example, the "Ask" toolbar, "Norton", etc. These will be untouched.


I see that they are making Firefox UX safe for search hijackers.


Don't worry, they've got that under control...
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2690753
Tip of the day: If it has "toolbar" in the name, it's crap.
What my avatar is about: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/sea-fox/

Drumbrake

User avatar
 
Posts: 1177
Joined: February 14th, 2011, 2:34 am

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 11:32 am

Official explanation for that "solution" (from https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=738818 ) :

:Gavin Sharp (use (email removed) for email) 2013-04-17 11:06:47 PDT

I'm not claiming that no one uses this feature. I'm quite aware that many people do, and I expect many of them will be upset by this change. But we have data and anecdotal evidence that there are many more people who will appreciate that their location bar searches are now more difficult to hijack, and will appreciate a more intuitive way to control how they search. This was a difficult but necessary tradeoff.
Last edited by Drumbrake on April 17th, 2013, 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Grantius

User avatar
 
Posts: 1545
Joined: June 28th, 2011, 4:14 pm

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 12:01 pm

So if they remove the add-on bar, how can I see my cache size with an add-on? Or will the top toolbar be a mess?
Micro gaming box: AMD A10-7800 APU, 8gb RAM M350 ITX case (size of a book), Windows 10/Ubuntu
Tablet/Laptop: Asus Transformer T100, Intel Atom 2GB RAM, Windows 10 x86
Mobile:Xiaomi Redmi Note 3 Pro

JayhawksRock

User avatar
 
Posts: 10433
Joined: October 24th, 2010, 8:51 am

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 12:14 pm

Grantius wrote:So if they remove the add-on bar, how can I see my cache size with an add-on? Or will the top toolbar be a mess?

You or the Extensions author will have to put it in the Only location allowed.. Right side of the Nav Bar, that is if the extension still works.
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is you never know if they are genuine" ...Abraham Lincoln

patrickjdempsey

User avatar
 
Posts: 23734
Joined: October 23rd, 2008, 11:43 am
Location: Asheville NC

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 12:46 pm

Don't be overly dramatic. Extensions can easily create a new toolbar... even under this regimen, which would work something like the old status bar which would require extension authors to manually force icons to appear there with no control over order. I would suspect Status-4-Evar would be the obvious defacto choice for implementing this. In addition, many of the things which have been removed can be restyled to OS defaults using -moz-appearance, so a new statusbar could actually have the benefit of actually looking like a freaking statusbar:

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/doc ... appearance
Tip of the day: If it has "toolbar" in the name, it's crap.
What my avatar is about: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/sea-fox/

JayhawksRock

User avatar
 
Posts: 10433
Joined: October 24th, 2010, 8:51 am

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 12:55 pm

Thank goodness. And thank You and everyone else creating extensions that is smart enough to be able to fix what Mozilla is committed to Killing.
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is you never know if they are genuine" ...Abraham Lincoln

Omega X

User avatar
 
Posts: 8187
Joined: October 18th, 2007, 2:38 pm
Location: A Parallel Dimension...

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 12:58 pm

WLS wrote:
Nothing constructive, and your type of off-topic message was one of the reasons the mailing list was created.


The reason that list was created because a select few thought that m.d.a.firefox was too noisy. Apparently, outsiders asking questions became too much. Despite that, m.d.a.firefox is still used over firefox-dev for now.
Latest: Firefox/82.0 *ESR/78.4.0 - Mobile/81.1.5 - Thunderbird/78.3.3
Nightly: Nightly/84.0a1 - Mobile/GV 83.0a1 - Daily/84.0a1

patrickjdempsey

User avatar
 
Posts: 23734
Joined: October 23rd, 2008, 11:43 am
Location: Asheville NC

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 1:26 pm

Honestly, eventually the only reasonable solution is going to be either a fork (which doesn't seem to be worth it) or a browser UI shell extension that duplicates all of the functions of the existing (previous) UI but does so in a dramatically simplified way. Such a shell unfortunately wouldn't be compatible with existing themes or extensions because all of the element ID's would have to be renamed. Plus-sides to either a fork or a shell would be the ability to create a completely new (read better) theming system, a better customization system with options like per-toolbar icon-size, and recreation of lost features like status text, titlebar, etc.
Tip of the day: If it has "toolbar" in the name, it's crap.
What my avatar is about: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/sea-fox/

Grantius

User avatar
 
Posts: 1545
Joined: June 28th, 2011, 4:14 pm

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 2:06 pm

JayhawksRock wrote:
Grantius wrote:So if they remove the add-on bar, how can I see my cache size with an add-on? Or will the top toolbar be a mess?

You or the Extensions author will have to put it in the Only location allowed.. Right side of the Nav Bar, that is if the extension still works.


Ah, conspiracy theory? Kill extensions so e10s is easier? :roll:
Micro gaming box: AMD A10-7800 APU, 8gb RAM M350 ITX case (size of a book), Windows 10/Ubuntu
Tablet/Laptop: Asus Transformer T100, Intel Atom 2GB RAM, Windows 10 x86
Mobile:Xiaomi Redmi Note 3 Pro

patrickjdempsey

User avatar
 
Posts: 23734
Joined: October 23rd, 2008, 11:43 am
Location: Asheville NC

Post Posted April 17th, 2013, 2:25 pm

Doubtful for that reason... more than likely they are still chasing the 2009 dragon of more screen real-estate to support "netbook" computers which are now being swiftly replaced by tablets that don't run desktop browsers anyway. Meanwhile, desktop and laptop screens keep getting bigger.
Tip of the day: If it has "toolbar" in the name, it's crap.
What my avatar is about: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/sea-fox/

Return to Firefox Builds


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron