New Experimental Tabbed Browsing Builds

[akuma-x]

I'm really digging the close buttons on the tabs. Not only am I digging them I would really love to see them in 1.5 final. This is how tabs should have been done from the get go. I have alwasy known about the middle click but the buttons are so much nicer.

[ap1978]

I have always used ctrl+w or middle-click to close tabs and I have removed the close button on the tab bar. I don't want any close tab button on each and every tab I have open.

[HemiolaSUN]

1. i don't think it's a good idea to integrate Tab Mix (Plus) into firefox. it's too complex. keep it as an extension.

2. i prefer the close button on tab. but we need a BIGGER min-width for tab. when there are too many tabs, we can't read the tab title with a 30px tab. i suggest 90px for this, and we may need a scrollable (or/and multirow) tabbar so that the user can easily read the tab even there are too many tabs, just as what TM(P) does.

[My Left Hand]

i prefer the close button on tab. but we need a BIGGER min-width for tab. when there are too many tabs, we can't read the tab title with a 30px tab. i suggest 90px for this, and we may need a scrollable (or/and multirow) tabbar so that the user can easily read the tab even there are too many tabs, just as what TM(P) does.

i agree, it seems to me like anything more than 10 tabs really makes the titles illegible.
i would propose a drop down menu on the right of the tab bar if more than 10 tabs are open simultaneously.

[********]

if you want a bigger min-width, just change the settings with TMP.

I see your point of TMP being too complex, but a lite version of it, not just Tab Mix but a a stable version of TMP with just the essential stuff that average users would appreciate and understand and use would be good.

[rschultz2002]

Why does everyone keep going on about Tab Mix, when the data on AMO shows that it isn't as heavily downloaded as personal observation may imply?

I don't dispute that having multiple tabbed browsing extensions merged into a single extension could be useful, especially for the newbies, but why is Tab Mix not reflected thus in AMO downloads?

*scratches head*

I do not think people are talking about Tab Mix. For one I and others just download/install the most current Beta or Alpha of Tab Mix Plus. Thats where all the fixes are for the little bugs. AMO does not have the Beta/Alpha. That could be the reason for low downloads of Tab Mix Plus. Thats if you are talking about Tab Mix Plus?

[supernova_00]

how would you change min tab width via userchrome?

[HemiolaSUN]

I see your point of TMP being too complex, but a lite version of it, not just Tab Mix but a a stable version of TMP with just the essential stuff that average users would appreciate and understand and use would be good.

that's why i use my personal lite version of Tab Mix now, and i hope certain basic features could be included in the future Fx.

therefore, the actuel study and the development of tabbed browsing is good.

how would you change min tab width via userchrome?

changing only the min-width is not enough. the tab outside the tabbar is unaccessible (you can read the page content, but not the TAB). it needs also a tab list or scrollable tabbar or whatever.

[MozoFox]

Pretty neat little feature reminds me of the extension called Tab X I think this neat little feature should stay it'll be a lot easier for those who are new at firefox

[bengoodger]

1/ Pop up a Firefox tips window when FF launches. You know, those windows with the lightbulb and the "do not show me this ever again" checkbox.

How many people do you know who actually sit there and click through those things? The more disable-able UI you add to the browser, the larger your preferences dialog gets with all the checkboxes to turn them on again.

2/ Add a "(middle-click)" blurb next to Close Tab in the tab context menu so that when someone discovers the context menu, they're only a quick step away from discovering the use of middle-click to close the tab.

That's what I first thought when I read the blog's entry. Middle-click is better than having a close button on each tab, it's not surprising if people do not use it when they first use firefox as they don't know it. Firefox just has to tell them!

I know it's there, just like I know the absurd double-click to make-a-new-tab feature is there. It's just that neither action seems "natural" - neither action is what you'd logically associate with closing a document. That's why even education won't help. Even folk who are familiar enough with the workings of the browser (me) to know that a feature is there are unlikely to actually associate it with an action if it doesn't feel logical.

Similarly, many people don't have three button mice, or if they do, they're a wheel and clicking on a wheel is much more difficult to do than click on a button that doesn't move around while you're trying to push down on it.

I just posted a followup comment in my blog that added that I forgot to mention that initially we were planning on testing this with the close button shown only on the active tab by setting the browser.tabs.minTabWidth to a really large number like 5000, faking the code into thinking that the tabs were too narrow and hiding the buttons on the background tabs. You can use about:config to tweak this value to get the setting you think works best for you.

[hhh]

I know it's there, just like I know the absurd double-click to make-a-new-tab feature is there. It's just that neither action seems "natural" - neither action is what you'd logically associate with closing a document. That's why even education won't help.

Wrong, it's not "natural" to navigate to "Start" to turn _off_ your computer, but people do it.

[code65536]

@ben

I will agree that the close button is definitely the best way to do away with the tab closing issue.

And I will also be the first to say that a huge downside to the tips window is that it's annoying (even with new software, I have the habit of disabling them first thing) and the added UI would be messy. And no, most people would not cycle through all of them (the only tips that have ever been useful for me are those for apps with long load times like games where the tips are displayed on the splash or loading screens where I'm captive audience). I brought it up only because it was just the first thing that came to mind at the time.

But how about something like this instead: on the Firefox Start page hosted at Google, there's a lightbulb (which most people associate with useful information) followed by a mundane welcome message. Could we put in a rotating set of random tips into that space instead? No new FF UI. Nothing annoying or in-your-face. It will be subtle, (hopefully) useful, and can be done fairly easily...

I guess the point that I was trying to convey with my original post was not an idea for the best UI solution, but it was more to emphasize that education could be useful. At a certain level, there are inherent "natural" ways of doing things, but I think that many of the "natural" behaviors that people have are based on the environment and what they're used to. Most people are used to IE, so the IE way of doing things is "natural". So it's good for Firefox to cater to that, but beyond a certain point, there are certain features of Firefox that simply require people to break out of the old mold and develop a new set of "natural" behaviors.

So regarding tab closing, I will reiterate that the button is a great addition and is by far the most intuitive way to deal with this (my suggestion about educating people about middle-click was thrown in as a supplement and not as something to do in lieu of the close button). But tab closing is only half the battle. What about tab opening? Getting other apps to open new pages in new tabs is a start, but I guess more can be done.

To be more specific, I think that it would be in the community's best interest to start getting people to develop a new set of behaviors. I've tried to get a number of people to use Firefox and to use tabbed browsing, but they don't use tabbed browsing much. I watched one of them once when he was searching Google. Punched in a search term, clicked on the first result, glanced through, hit back, clicked on the second result, hit back, clicked on the third, etc. I then taught him about middle-clicking links and how you could now open multiple search results at a time instead of hitting back over and over again. The back button method, I guess, is just the way people think about browsing (in serial) if they're used to IE. Tabs is a more parallel way of thinking about browsing. It's a little like the imperative programmer using Lisp for the first time--at first, it would seem far from the natural thing to do, but if you teach him and give him a bit of time, it'll be second nature. I don't think that either the imperative or functional approach to thinking about programs is inherently more "natural" than the other--only that more people are used to the former and know about it (I mean, really, who uses Lisp, anyway ). So that's why I think mixing in a bit of subtle eduation would help--well, at least it won't hurt.

[Govio]

Just a hunch, but I suspect that the close button on background tabs is fairly likely to be hit accidentally and not very likely to be used on purpose, especially by the beginner user this is intended to help.

Early when I was trying to learn how to use tabs in firefox (a few weeks after starting with firefox), I found the close tab button on the far side hard to use, and in a few days I installed TabX. That same night I uninstalled it when I learned that you could use the middle click to close a tab. Now, not everyone has a middle button, but I can't imagine using firefox without a middle button. It feels to me like not having a middle button mouse would really hamper the use of firefox.

A close button on the active tab seems to not hurt anything, but I think that teaching about middle button close is extremely important also. I'm not sure the best way to do it, tabbed browsing (and the middle click features) is already described in the tabbed browsing link in the help option "for internet explorer users" and I suppose I should have read it there. I don't remember how I first learned that middle click opens a tab, maybe I heard that in conversation. Maybe a suggestion when the install of firefox is done to read the "Help for internet explorer users" and the tabbed browsing section, and keyboard or mouse shortcuts? Not that too many people would listen.

[BenBasson]

Wrong, it's not "natural" to navigate to "Start" to turn _off_ your computer, but people do it.

How does that in any way relate to Ben's point? Bad Windows UI doesn't justify failing to cater for people who struggle with tabs.

[hhh]

Wrong, it's not "natural" to navigate to "Start" to turn _off_ your computer, but people do it.

How does that in any way relate to Ben's point? Bad Windows UI doesn't justify failing to cater for people who struggle with tabs.

It relates to his statement that education won't help. I disagree, education helps, new user behavior is possible. If not, tabs wouldn't even exist.

Personally, I think a close button on each tab will just shift tab problems from those who don't know how to close individual tabs to those who keep accidentally closing individual tabs.