Arrrrrrghhhh!!!!

Post by **shadytrees** » December 23rd, 2003, 5:34 am

So I guess we'll just have to delete the Mozilla Firebird folder for now instead of using the uninstaller.

joeg · Post by **joeg** » December 23rd, 2003, 5:39 am

johnleemk wrote:

Why is everyone so riled up? It's not like the bug has hit you. Sultanoswing is much more controlled in his mannerisms, yet people who haven't been hit are making a huge fuss

It did hit me, and it took me three whole days to fix my machine.

Joe

johnleemk · Post by **johnleemk** » December 23rd, 2003, 5:43 am

I was talking to nmlss.

TheOneKEA · Post by **TheOneKEA** » December 23rd, 2003, 5:45 am

I suspect people were screaming like this not because of the direct effects of the bug, but because of the indirect effects - namely the bad publicity and the fears everyone has that it may damage Firebird's reputation.

oliversl · Post by **oliversl** » December 23rd, 2003, 8:52 am

TheOneKEA wrote:I suspect people were screaming like this not because of the direct effects of the bug, but because of the indirect effects - namely the bad publicity and the fears everyone has that it may damage Firebird's reputation.

I think it is a direct effect. Look, this guy lost 30GB of data!!!
This is something that could happend to everyone.

TheOneKEA · Post by **TheOneKEA** » December 23rd, 2003, 8:54 am

oliversl wrote:
TheOneKEA wrote:I suspect people were screaming like this not because of the direct effects of the bug, but because of the indirect effects - namely the bad publicity and the fears everyone has that it may damage Firebird's reputation.

I think it is a direct effect. Look, this guy lost 30GB of data!!!
This is something that could happend to everyone.

I'm not denying that there have been direct consequences of this bug; I was saying that the indirect consequences could be greater.

oliversl · Post by **oliversl** » December 23rd, 2003, 8:58 am

TheOneKEA wrote:
oliversl wrote:
TheOneKEA wrote:I suspect people were screaming like this not because of the direct effects of the bug, but because of the indirect effects - namely the bad publicity and the fears everyone has that it may damage Firebird's reputation.

I think it is a direct effect. Look, this guy lost 30GB of data!!!
This is something that could happend to everyone.

I'm not denying that there have been direct consequences of this bug; I was saying that the indirect consequences could be greater.

Agree. Since there will be a few weeks beetwen 0.8 and 0.9, many people will be affected.

Atomhrt · Post by **Atomhrt** » December 23rd, 2003, 9:26 am

Why is the installer deleting anything? This gives me the perception of something that I see more from M$, and that is: We know better than you do what needs to be done, so we are modifying your PC to suit OUR needs. As a developer, I know that the recursive removal of files/folders is VERY dangerous and needs to be very well tested before anyone other than the dev gets the bits.

I never use installers, if there is the option not to. I was going to help test this, but when I saw that the installer was required, my "inner" voice said "don't do it".

michaell522 · Post by **michaell522** » December 23rd, 2003, 9:36 am

Atomhrt wrote:Why is the installer deleting anything? This gives me the perception of something that I see more from M$, and that is: We know better than you do what needs to be done, so we are modifying your PC to suit OUR needs.

Installers should be able to install over previous versions, and that is the idea of it deleting things. Firebird should also be able to install over a previous installation, which may have third party add-ons - therefore it may need to delete more than the official Firebird files. Obviously it shouldn't end up deleting more than that, which was the bug.

The bug has now been fixed anyway - the installer now deletes nothing. Of course, this means there may be problems if people don't install into an empty folder.

I never use installers, if there is the option not to. I was going to help test this, but when I saw that the installer was required, my "inner" voice said "don't do it".

The installer is only being "required" for a few nightly builds, to encourage people to test them. If you're a developer, you can just grab the source code and build it however you like. For users that don't like installers, I'm sure there will be a zip of the release as well.

michaell522 · Post by **michaell522** » December 23rd, 2003, 9:37 am

Atomhrt wrote:Why is the installer deleting anything? This gives me the perception of something that I see more from M$, and that is: We know better than you do what needs to be done, so we are modifying your PC to suit OUR needs.

Installers should be able to install over previous versions, and that is the idea of it deleting things. Firebird should also be able to install over a previous installation, which may have third party add-ons - therefore it may need to delete more than the official Firebird files. Obviously it shouldn't end up deleting more than that, which was the bug.

The bug has now been fixed in 0.8 builds anyway - the installer now deletes nothing. Of course, this means there may be problems if people don't install into an empty folder.

I never use installers, if there is the option not to. I was going to help test this, but when I saw that the installer was required, my "inner" voice said "don't do it".

The installer is only being "required" for a few nightly builds, to encourage people to test them. If you're a developer, you can just grab the source code and build it however you like. For users that don't like installers, I'm sure there will be a zip of the release as well.

wget · Post by **wget** » December 23rd, 2003, 10:25 am

Atomhrt wrote:M$

UGH! Urge to maim small kittens rising.

nmlss · Post by **nmlss** » December 23rd, 2003, 10:38 am

johnleemk wrote:
With this kind of bug in the installer, there will be no zip files? Why, that is outright brilliant - and a sure way that anybody who actually uses their PC will stay about fifty miles away from the 0.8 branch. I have to assume that that is what Ben wants.

Why is everyone so riled up? It's not like the bug has hit you.

It's exceedingly simple: because this is the kind of bug that is too dangerous to be allowed to survive - as several people who mentioned taking days to reinstall stuff on their PC mentioned. Even if I am using a nightly build, I am not quite prepared to deal with the idea that a programme will happily delete a whole tree of directories without warning - so I would have considered it fairly normal at least to try to keep people away from such a bug, with the zip files that have always been available. Forcing people to use the installer knowing that such a bug is present is one of the surest ways I know of to have a lot of disgruntled testers go elsewhere - it seems fairly obvious to me.
What also seems fairly obvious to me is that the political climate in the firebird developement process is, indeed, in tune with such decisions, sadly: 'oh, you don't like it? Fine, go elsewhere' - which is not perhaps the best attitude to keep in front of people who are, in a very real sense, donating time to do QA and debugging on an application. That is the reason for my 'riledness'.

- Nameless / who has been testing firebird for a while and is grateful for the developers for their work, but would expect some gratefulness in return

Pike · Post by **Pike** » December 23rd, 2003, 10:59 am

nmlss wrote:It's exceedingly simple: because this is the kind of bug that is too dangerous to be allowed to survive - as several people who mentioned taking days to reinstall stuff on their PC mentioned. Even if I am using a nightly build, I am not quite prepared to deal with the idea that a programme will happily delete a whole tree of directories without warning - so I would have considered it fairly normal at least to try to keep people away from such a bug, with the zip files that have always been available. Forcing people to use the installer knowing that such a bug is present is one of the surest ways I know of to have a lot of disgruntled testers go elsewhere - it seems fairly obvious to me.
What also seems fairly obvious to me is that the political climate in the firebird developement process is, indeed, in tune with such decisions, sadly: 'oh, you don't like it? Fine, go elsewhere' - which is not perhaps the best attitude to keep in front of people who are, in a very real sense, donating time to do QA and debugging on an application. That is the reason for my 'riledness'.

I think you're reading way too much into this. When the bug was first discovered the developer was under the mistaken idea that it was something similar to a Mozilla bug. Since then it has been made clear that that is not the case. The release of 0.8 has now been pushed back and the problem fixed (well worked-around). Maybe it could have been handled better but I don't see how you conclude: 'oh, you don't like it? Fine, go elsewhere'?

Post by **Nitin** » December 23rd, 2003, 11:47 am

Couldnt have said it better. Developers are human. One may disagree with a particular decision, but that's no excuse either to start resetting flags in bugzilla, or to start off - 'they're lucky they cannot be sued...'.

Legoguy · Post by **Legoguy** » December 23rd, 2003, 11:59 am

The least that could be done until this bug is fixed is have it move stuff to the Recycle Bin. That way it's just a matter of restoring everything.

Arrrrrrghhhh!!!!

Three Days!