Constructive discussion about the Firefox 3.0 theme and UI

[faaborg]

No we didn't revert to guessing I assumed we would be able to find some documentation somewhere. It's entirely possible that they just hard coded it and didn't provide a way for other applications to access it.

I finally did track down where this was. Its actually in shellstyle.dll as some xml markup. If you Google for "FolderBandStyle" you'll find some stuff on it. I'm not sure how or if you can pull that out and use it somewhere else though. It kinda looks like its explorer's own special thing.

EDIT: And I'm sure was easy for someone else to find out. But it took me long enough I wanted to write that I did it somewhere.

This is the first I've heard of someone determining its exact location, the effort is greatly appreciated I'll pass this information on to the platform developer that was working on extracting the various rebars to see if we can get this exposed to themes that want to use it.

Edit: the comment that it is expressed as XML markup as opposed to a raster version like the others means that it could be difficult for us to extract this one to expose to themes, but I'm not that incredibly familiar with how we pull the platform look and feel.

[UrbenLegend]

Can we please get a background box for vista's close tab button? When a website's title is too long, the plain x looks like part of the title. It's really distracting and not appealing at all.

[singularity0821]

Would it be possible to use the "page-livemarks" icon used some time ago () instead of the current old-fashioned one ()?

I also wanted to point out that the livemark-folder () and livemark-item () icons don't appear in the bookmarks library and since the last nightly build (2008040204) they neither appear in the library nor in the bookmarks sidebar.

[asquithea]

Would it be possible to use the "page-livemarks" icon used some time ago instead of the current old-fashioned one?

Sure, it's possible, but why break a standard -- just for the sake of it?

[cdev]

Would it be possible to use the "page-livemarks" icon used some time ago instead of the current old-fashioned one?

Sure, it's possible, but why break a standard -- just for the sake of it?

Because the old icon is not *really* a standard, just widely used. Plus, the glyph looks ten times better.

[mattcoz]

Because the old icon is not *really* a standard, just widely used.

It is generally accepted as the standard because of the work of the Mozilla Foundation to push it as the standard, so why would they just abandon it now? Adhering to a standard is much more important than making something look a little better(in your opinion).

[faaborg]

Would it be possible to use the "page-livemarks" icon used some time ago () instead of the current old-fashioned one ()?

I also wanted to point out that the livemark-folder () and livemark-item () icons don't appear in the bookmarks library and since the last nightly build (2008040204) they neither appear in the library nor in the bookmarks sidebar.

We tried out using just the glyph in several betas since the icon was visually lighter, but feedback was really negative. People felt that the shape surrounding the radiating waves was really an integral part of the design. Personally I'm fine with other applications or sites making slight modifications to the web feed icon if that is what it takes to get them to use the symbol. For instance, a blue Web feed icon in Safari would be better than a blue square that says "RSS" on it.

We still need to get the live bookmark icons set correctly in the library window.

[kliu0x52]

First, the curve used on the left side of the address bar is rendered inconsistently.


On the left is Windows XP with Luna, and on the right is Windows XP with Classic. In the case of Luna (and this also applies to Vista, BTW), the address bar has a blue border, consistent with the blue text box border used in Luna. But the curve is not blue and does not match that color. In the case of classic, the address bar has a 2-pixel border, consistent with the text box border used in classic Windows, but the curve is only 1 pixel and it stands out like a sore thumb.

Maybe we should go back to using a straight edge. After all, both ends of the search box are straight, and the right end of the address bar is straight.

----- ----- ----- -----

Second, it seems that the lower part of the buttons on the find bar are cut off in Windows Classic (this does not seem to affect themed Windows). [Screenshot] Since this is a bug, I have filed it as bug #426781.

[adelfino]

First, the curve used on the left side of the address bar is rendered inconsistently.


On the left is Windows XP with Luna, and on the right is Windows XP with Classic. In the case of Luna (and this also applies to Vista, BTW), the address bar has a blue border, consistent with the blue text box border used in Luna. But the curve is not blue and does not match that color. In the case of classic, the address bar has a 2-pixel border, consistent with the text box border used in classic Windows, but the curve is only 1 pixel and it stands out like a sore thumb.

Maybe we should go back to using a straight edge. After all, both ends of the search box are straight, and the right end of the address bar is straight.

There's a bug for this (416974, unequal appearance because of different border colors "favicon container <-> location bar"), but the wrong approach to fix it is coming (which is carrying the grey/brown colour used for the edge of the button around the entire field)...

[kliu0x52]

First, the curve used on the left side of the address bar is rendered inconsistently.


On the left is Windows XP with Luna, and on the right is Windows XP with Classic. In the case of Luna (and this also applies to Vista, BTW), the address bar has a blue border, consistent with the blue text box border used in Luna. But the curve is not blue and does not match that color. In the case of classic, the address bar has a 2-pixel border, consistent with the text box border used in classic Windows, but the curve is only 1 pixel and it stands out like a sore thumb.

Maybe we should go back to using a straight edge. After all, both ends of the search box are straight, and the right end of the address bar is straight.

There's a bug for this (416974, unequal appearance because of different border colors "favicon container <-> location bar"), but the wrong approach to fix it is coming (which is carrying the grey/brown colour used for the edge of the button around the entire field)...

*reads bug*
*notices "our overall strategy of balancing nativeness with the creation of a recognizable appearance"*
*shudders*

Since when did Firefox turn from a product that focuses on good engineering and usability into something that focuses instead on marketing (complete with the requisite corporate marketing-ese?)

Besides, Firefox is already distinctive/recognizable enough. You don't need a curve to set it apart from others. And while I recognize the desire for there to be a curve there to match the keyhole curve on the other end, there is nevertheless a series of buttons separating the two curves, and I suspect that most people would not notice or appreciate it.

[adelfino]

Since when did Firefox turn from a product that focuses on good engineering and usability into something that focuses instead of marketing?

That's exactly what I'd like to know...

[BenBasson]

As far as I can see, none of the changes hinder usability and in some cases (larger back button) aid it significantly. As long as marketing gains are not at the expense of usability, I don't see the problem.

[adelfino]

As far as I can see, none of the changes hinder usability and in some cases (larger back button) aid it significantly. As long as marketing gains are not at the expense of usability, I don't see the problem.

Really? I think I've seen back and forward buttons have the same size for ages. Yet, most users know how to use a Web browser...

[BenBasson]

It's usability 101:
- A bigger button is easier to click
- The most used buttons should be the easiest to click
- Therefore the most used buttons should be larger

The fact that people can use web browsers doesn't mean Firefox should stop improving.

[kliu0x52]

As far as I can see, none of the changes hinder usability and in some cases (larger back button) aid it significantly. As long as marketing gains are not at the expense of usability, I don't see the problem.

Well, maybe usability isn't quite the right word. And I also recognize that the issues at stake are rather trivial, on both ends. Most people probably do not care one bit if that curve color doesn't match the color of the rest of the address bar, but on the same token, most people probably do not care one bit that there is that curve.

One could also argue that the interface for the old Mozilla application suite was usable. All the necessary buttons and boxes were there, and they all worked as expected. It was fully usable, yes, indeed. But none of it was native, and it stood out from the rest of the system. And I recall that in the early days, one of the things that many people complimented Phoenix and Firebird about was that it was native and it looked like that it belonged and fit in. And maybe "usability" isn't the right word for that. I'm not sure what to call it. "Fitting in"? "Adhering to standards"? "Presenting a consistent user experience"? "Professionalism through restraint"? Not usability, per se, but still important. And, IMHO, not something that should be sacrificed. If anything, that sort of deviation from standard cuts both ways. Sure, you might get a few people who would be impressed by the curve (probably not many, as, after all, we are arguing over something small and trivial), but you will also get people like me who are annoyed at the lack of professionalism that these blemishes present (once again, not many people).

As with all marketing, the best spokesperson is the product itself. Stick with the mission and goals, and everything else will fall in place. And to that end, I think we should stick with the goal for nativeness, and let the polish and professionalism that such nativeness would bring do the marketing.