September Google Zeitgeist

[schapel]

So what you are saying is that Opera actually makes an effort to work with the web as it exists today, while Mozilla developers live in some dream world and think only W3C exists? Maybe this is why Mozilla/Firebird has problems with so many pages? I sure hope this isn't the case, but you seem to be convinced of this...

No, Mozilla doesn't live in a "dream world." Mozilla has quirks mode in which it renders pages that do not have a !DOCTYPE or that use HTML 4.01 transitional according to how browsers of the past rendered them. Mozilla supports non-standard tags such as <blink> and <marquee>. Mozilla understands HTML with severe structural errors.

But what Mozilla does not do is attempt to render pages that have blatantly been designed for and tested with only Internet Explorer. Mozilla does not support document.all, which is Internet Explorer's proprietary Document Object Model, as IE and Opera do. Mozilla correctly uses the MIME type of documents, and neither the extension nor the content of documents that it downloads, as IE does and Opera does by default. And Mozilla steadfastly refuses to implement eye-candy like colored scrollbars like IE and Opera do.

Mozilla does a good job of recognizing enough non-standard HTML so that nearly all of the web is usable in Mozilla, but also does a good job of sticking to the standards so that web developers must largely refrain from using the proprietary browser extensions of the past. It's a fine line to tread, and there will always be people who will claim it should walk a slightly different line, but you can never please everyone.

[schapel]

Come on mozilla people, can't someone at least set this moron straight and show that the mozilla community isn't full of complete morons?

Yes, we're waiting. Please, someone, set the record straight.

[MoNkaholic]

What exactly is wrong with supporting standards and supporting IE's flubs?

[schapel]

What exactly is wrong with supporting standards and supporting IE's flubs?

Absolutely nothing.

My original point is only that Opera is not really an ally of Mozilla, because Mozilla's goal is to evangelize web standards by supporting only as few extensions as it can get away with. As Mozilla's usage share increases, web developers will be more careful not to use extensions that won't work in Mozilla. Otherwise, they run the risk of turning away significant portions of their potential customers.

Opera, on the other hand, has been copying all of IE's extensions. Opera's goal is to be a profitable company, and they achieve that goal by getting as many users to use their browser as possible. Of course, their users want to see web pages as the developers intented them to be, so it makes perfect sense for Opera to try to render the pages whether standards are followed or not. This approach neither encourages nor discourages developers from using web standards, and therefore I claim that Opera is not an ally of Mozilla in the fight for web standards.

Neither of the two approaches is inherently better than the other. They're just different.

[MoNkaholic]

See, theres the rub. Simply by supporting standards, Opera encourages developers to use web standards. The only difference is Opera doesn't discourage developers from not using web standards.

[schapel]

See, theres the rub. Simply by supporting standards, Opera encourages developers to use web standards. The only difference is Opera doesn't discourage developers from not using web standards.

However, by supporting IE's proprietary extensions, Opera also encourages some developers to stick with IE-only web design. Let's just say that using Opera is better than using IE or Netscape 4, but not as good as using Mozilla or Safari, at encouraging web standards.

[MoNkaholic]

Whether you support proprietary IE extensions or not has nothing to do with encouraging web standards. It's your actual support of web standards that means anything.

If you want to say that Opera refrains from discouraging the use of proprietary IE extensions, be my guest.

[shadytrees]

I'd wish they'd plot that graph without IE, so that the scale wouldn't be screwed.

[d_ralphie]

However, by supporting IE's proprietary extensions, Opera also encourages some developers to stick with IE-only web design.

however, by supporting ie's proprietary extensions, mozilla also encourages some developers to stick with ie-only web design.

Opera, on the other hand, has been copying all of IE's extensions.

pure fud. it does not support all of ie's extensions.

[schapel]

However, by supporting IE's proprietary extensions, Opera also encourages some developers to stick with IE-only web design.

however, by supporting ie's proprietary extensions, mozilla also encourages some developers to stick with ie-only web design.

I suppose Mozilla could simply not support any proprietary features at all, and then no one would use it because nearly no web sites would work. Brilliant idea!

Opera, on the other hand, has been copying all of IE's extensions.

pure fud. it does not support all of ie's extensions.

Sigh. If Opera did support all of IE's extensions, I would have said Opera had copied all of IE's extensions. It is still in the process of copying the extensions, and thus I said "has been" instead.

I think you need to read posts more carefully before you respond to them.

[Jacob XP]

There is a new Google Zeigeist. Looks like mozilla continues to increase its marketshare. Have a look here http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html

[kevykev]

There is a new Google Zeigeist. Looks like mozilla continues to increase its marketshare. Have a look here http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html

I find it amusing: the fifth highest query is "<a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=internet+explorer+vulnerability">Internet Explorer Vulnerability</a>". Microsoft programmers should codename IE "Patches"

[schapel]

If you look closely, it seems like the yellow line of Other is peeking out over Mozilla's purple line:

<img src="http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist/nov03_browsers.gif" width="640" height="356">

Maybe it's time to ask Google to include a line for Safari or Opera, since a large part of Other must be one of those browsers.

[loadbang]

I love this month's Zeitgeist:

Top 10 Gaining Queries
Week Ending Dec. 15, 2003

in 5th place: internet explorer vulnerability