My Documents cleaned out

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zorinlynx wrote:I'm of the firm opinion that people should read what is in a dialog box before hitting OK. Is it really that hard?

Yes, it really is that hard. Have you seen it and played with it? You can do that. Just create a dummy directory with some dummy files in it and you will see. Notice the subtle way (clever, actually) in which it tells you where the profile is going. Then notice what you see 10 months later when you have forgotten all about it. Really good software design wouldn't even require a warning. You wouldn't even have to think about it. Some people have suggested ways to both simplify the software AND render the warning unnecessary.

zorinlynx wrote:Perhaps the dialog should have a bigger "WARNING" symbol or the OK should be changed to "DELETE"? But you still should have read it.

You're preaching to the choir. But again, have you actually seen the dialog?
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Post by Guest »

zorinlynx wrote:
Perhaps the dialog should have a bigger "WARNING" symbol or the OK should be changed to "DELETE"? But you still should have read it.

So, you do agree there is a fundamental flaw in the program's design. And to top it off, it is contrary to how the program's uninstaller works- it won't delete the profile folder and even worse, doesn't tell you that it left the files.
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djst
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Post by djst »

James wrote:You did not know that David Tenser is a Mod here? ..He has been a Mod since at least July 2003.

David Tenser moved Firefox Help to Firefox Help early November last year.

I'm glad that some people remember me. :) I should spend more time in these forums though.

I see that the help page has been updated already. Thanks benjamin for the help.
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Alice
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Post by Alice »

Some action, at last:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=304290
Treeview of 'Choose Folder' Option in Create Profile/Profile Manager should not point at 'my documents' by default
Alice Wyman
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Post by the-edmeister »

Alice wrote:Some action, at last:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=304290
Treeview of 'Choose Folder' Option in Create Profile/Profile Manager should not point at 'my documents' by default

"We" are gonna have to wait for Firefox 2.0 to see it, it was posted to the Trunk and shows as resolved for 2.0 .

guest wrote:So, you do agree there is a fundamental flaw in the program's design.

The main problem is that all the files that comprise a Profile are just 'dumped' into whatever folder the user designates, those files are not put in their own folder which IMHO would be proper. The 'corporate IT guys' don't want Firefox to create the folder so the Firefox Developers don't allow Firefox to create a folder! The needs of the individual user (or good programming practices) be d@mned !

Ed
A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Mine has wandered off and I'm out looking for it.
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Vectorspace
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Post by Vectorspace »

I agree, and that was the original behaviour too. There's no point arguing that point, because the devs have made it clear that they won't change that behaviour.

What annoys me is that any bug filed that argues that that behaviour causes data loss is immediately declared invalid because they won't change that behaviour - no-one stops to consider that there might be alternate solutions to it...

Like, Firefox only deleting known profile files and stopping and warning you if there are other, non-known files in the profile folder.

Since FF creates every file in the profile, Firefox should be capable of maintaining a list of every file in the profile, and only deleting those.

Even a bigger warning would be nice.

I think the argument that profile manager should not be seen by anyone but expert users is flawed, because a. last time I checked, profile manager was still discussed on the FF help pages on the mozilla web site; and b. even an experienced user can fail to notice that no subfolder was created for the profile, or can fail to notice the warning on profile deletion - it only takes a moment's carelessness;
"All things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the correct one" - Occam's Razor
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Post by old zeniko »

the-edmeister wrote:"We" are gonna have to wait for Firefox 2.0 to see it, it was posted to the Trunk and shows as resolved for 2.0 .

Actually, it's so far fixed only for Firefox 3.0. I've now requested inclusion of the (very simple) patch for Firefox 2.0 and 1.5.0.2.

Vectorspace wrote:What annoys me is that any bug filed that argues that that behaviour causes data loss is immediately declared invalid because they won't change that behaviour - no-one stops to consider that there might be alternate solutions to it...

The problem is that BugZilla is not the place for making design decisions. Instead try to propose an alternative over at wiki.mozilla.org and create a bug for implementing the alternative (filed as enhancement request).

Vectorspace wrote:Like, Firefox only deleting known profile files and stopping and warning you if there are other, non-known files in the profile folder.

Since FF creates every file in the profile, Firefox should be capable of maintaining a list of every file in the profile, and only deleting those.

Even a bigger warning would be nice.

Both alternatives aren't bad (although I suppose that a bigger warning would most probably be just as ignored) - but you'll need someone to implement them. The "devs" (main developers) have got different priorities (if you look through BugZilla you'll find many bugs which could get more attention - but there simply isn't the necessary manpower available), so somebody else should write the patch. Now getting a different warning text is a simple patch to write (give me the wording, I'll get you the patch), but if you want the wording to be bold, you're already asking for more than a simple one-line fix. And your first alternative would require reaching deep into Gecko internals, which isn't something you do light-hearted.

Vectorspace wrote:I think the argument that profile manager should not be seen by anyone but expert users is flawed, because a. last time I checked, profile manager was still discussed on the FF help pages on the mozilla web site; and b. even an experienced user can fail to notice that no subfolder was created for the profile, or can fail to notice the warning on profile deletion - it only takes a moment's carelessness;

I agree on that. Just don't expect any coding support from the "devs". Rather get a collection of real alternatives and ask e.g. mconnor or some other UI-responsible to give design advice. Depending on the impact of the required changes, you could then even find somebody else willing to contribute a patch.

My own suggestions were:
* When choosing a folder, modifiy the "Choose Profile Folder" to read "Choose Profile Folder (should be empty)" - not for the non-reading users, but for those who are not precisely sure of the dialogs behavior.
* Warn the user, if the chosen folder is not empty.
* Warn the user, if the chosen folder at or inside "My Documents", resp. not located inside "Application Data".
If the warnings are presented as message boxes, this might/will annoy some sysadmins. An alternative would be to present the warning right under the path in the dialog - red and bold. This might catch someone's attention without requiring any more clicks by those who know what they're doing.
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Post by max1million »

Create New Folder button might also help, in that it would give the idea that you should as well as the ability to do so, without having to have thought about it before you started. No Create New Folder button and many assume FF will do so automaticly.

Delete Files button should be renamed to Delete Folder since that's what it does, and placed next to folder name.
Alice wrote:Some action, at last:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=304290
Treeview of 'Choose Folder' Option in Create Profile/Profile Manager should not point at 'my documents' by default

My Choose Folder opens at My Compter, but agree it sholud point to profile folder (or suggested folder), but also with Create New Folder button.

On another note more profile manager
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=365210
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Post by Bazon »

@zeniko:
Thanks for making that fix!

I'm really happy this Firefox behaviour will change cause I don't like people getting bothered by my favourite PC application, Mozilla Firefox :) :wink:

Also vielen Dank nochmal und beste Grüße in die Schweiz!
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Post by old zeniko »

@max1million: There is a "Create New Folder" button inside the "Choose Profile Folder" dialog.

Still I'd rather hint the user inside that dialog that the chosen folder should be empty and if it is not, display an alert sign an a corresponding message (maybe even bold and red) on the wizard page. Now if anybody could do a good mockup of how that could look like, we could try to get a patch for that together...
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Post by Alice »

For the record, the same issue affects Thunderbird:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=273729
Profile removal caused data loss by deleting files in use and not created by program.
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Post by max1million »

zeniko wrote:@max1million: There is a "Create New Folder" button inside the "Choose Profile Folder" dialog.
Not on mine. Must be more recent addition.
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Post by Bazon »

max1million wrote:
zeniko wrote:@max1million: There is a "Create New Folder" button inside the "Choose Profile Folder" dialog.
Not on mine. Must be more recent addition.
Maybe because you use Win98? AFAIK this treeview window comes from the OS, not from Firefox.
Here in Win XP SP2 and Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de; rv:1.9a1) Gecko/20060114 Firefox/1.6a1 ID:2006011503 there is this new folder button...
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Post by Vectorspace »

Bazon is correct - the treeview in Profile Manager and in the FF installer do not have a new folder button under Win98.
"All things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the correct one" - Occam's Razor
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Post by Guest »

Thanks for fixing that bug. In spite of efforts to put warnings throughout MozillaZine and in hundreds of support messages, casualties are still reported. One moderator even fell victim to this problem.

While the bug fix will at least steer some users away from the "My Documents" folder, it does nothing to warn them of the problem when they select another folder. Ideally the warnings should be place in the correct place in the program instead of having to repeat the warnings in every user support message.

Wherever users put their profile, it is still imperative either to eliminate possibility of data loss without user intelligence or to give the user adequate warning. There are many ways to do this, but it really should be done both when creating and deleting the profile. It is certainly an error to mingle profile files with other data, and there should be a warning about that.

There are wording suggestions in bug 302087. Also, from bug 305551:
"When creating a new profile directory, Profile Manager should warn user that:
(1) The directory and all its contents may be deleted in the future;
(2) The user should not store any files in that directory.
The warning should be prominent and unmistakable, so no reasonable user would
miss seeing it."

Feel free to take those bugs or fix it in some other way. The exact nature of the fix, or even the bug numbers, is not important. It doesn't matter much if the result is accomplished by warnings or by some other means, just so long as the problem is fixed.
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