simpler way to access gmail?

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karenanne
Posts: 630
Joined: September 18th, 2004, 5:16 am

simpler way to access gmail?

Post by karenanne »

I've been messing around trying to plan how to get thunderbird working with the new gmail which has made security changes. I have to install a much newer version of thunderbird than I have been using on a newer windows system 32 bit Windows 7.

I've tried to simplify my plan and would appreciate any advice or answers to questions.

I plan to install the latest version of thunderbird 102.1.2 on the Windows 7 32 bit system. Is that thunderbird a good version? I don't want to install something buggy. If it is not good, what version would be better?

I want to use POP so I can keep my own copy of email on my system. That is the only device I will read email on.

The directions I found for how to set things up with gmail and thunderbird are from google support (below) but they are undated and I suspect may be obsolete because they don't mention OAuth. I searched for OAuth and thunderbird and gmail and only found reports of fails.

Are these directions okay? Thank you.

First set up POP in gmail:

Open Gmail in your browser.
On the top right click Settings(gear) - see all settings.
Click the Forwarding and POP/IMAP tab.
In the POP download section, select Enable POP for all mail.
Click Save changes.

Make changes to thunderbird:

Incoming Mail (POP) server:
pop.gmail.com
Requires SSL: Yes
Port: 995

Outgoing Mail (SMTP) server:
smtp.gmail.com
Requires SSL: Yes
Requires TLS: Yes (if available)
Requires authentication: Yes
Port for TLS/STARTTLS: 587
Full name or display name: your name
Account name, user name or email address: your email address
password: your gmail password
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tanstaafl
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Re: simpler way to access gmail?

Post by tanstaafl »

Your timing is good. 102 has been available for a couple of weeks only as download from thunderbird.net. Its now mature enough (enough bug fixes) that its also available as a automated upgrade to 91. So I suggest you download the setup program for 102.1.2 from thunderbird.net rather than download 91.12.0 (last update to 91) at http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/thunderbird/ ... n32/en-US/

Gmail is in the Mozilla ISP database so the new account wizard will automatically find and use settings that use OAuth2. You don't need to manually tweak the settings.

Gmail needs to be able to have Thunderbird (not your system browser) create a google.com cookie to get the popup window for OAuth2 to work. Cookies are enabled by default in Thunderbird. Installed software such as a web server or something that uses a local proxy can cause problems for the OAuth2 popup window but most people don't have anything like that installed.

If you want to keep a copy of mail on your system think about using a IMAP account, but create a message filter that automatically copies any new mail in the Gmail inbox to the "Local Folders" inbox. You can also create a message filter that automatically saves a copy of any sent mail in the Sent folder in "Local Folders". That way you have local copies of your messages safely saved on your hard disk (that will exist even if you lose your Gmail account) but can also share your folders with email clients on other PCs.

A IMAP account has a steeper learning curve but avoids several problems unique to POP accounts such as a logjam if Thunderbird can't download a message due to "bad" headers". It also interoperates with a email client on a smartphone a lot better. Just something to think about.
karenanne
Posts: 630
Joined: September 18th, 2004, 5:16 am

Re: simpler way to access gmail?

Post by karenanne »

My understanding is the automatically happens stuff is not POP but IMAP. I definitely want POP. This whole thing is enough of a mess without my getting IMAP and then having to munge with it and Local Folders instead of things just happening without that.

So I am hoping someone can tell me if the settings in my original post are correct and complete or not for POP.
Gone Postal
Posts: 501
Joined: December 2nd, 2008, 1:00 pm

Re: simpler way to access gmail?

Post by Gone Postal »

tanstaafl wrote:Your timing is good. 102 has been available for a couple of weeks only as download from thunderbird.net. Its now mature enough (enough bug fixes) that its also available as a automated upgrade to 91. So I suggest you download the setup program for 102.1.2 from thunderbird.net rather than download 91.12.0 (last update to 91) at http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/thunderbird/ ... n32/en-US/

Gmail is in the Mozilla ISP database so the new account wizard will automatically find and use settings that use OAuth2. You don't need to manually tweak the settings.

Gmail needs to be able to have Thunderbird (not your system browser) create a google.com cookie to get the popup window for OAuth2 to work. Cookies are enabled by default in Thunderbird. Installed software such as a web server or something that uses a local proxy can cause problems for the OAuth2 popup window but most people don't have anything like that installed.

If you want to keep a copy of mail on your system think about using a IMAP account, but create a message filter that automatically copies any new mail in the Gmail inbox to the "Local Folders" inbox. You can also create a message filter that automatically saves a copy of any sent mail in the Sent folder in "Local Folders". That way you have local copies of your messages safely saved on your hard disk (that will exist even if you lose your Gmail account) but can also share your folders with email clients on other PCs.

A IMAP account has a steeper learning curve but avoids several problems unique to POP accounts such as a logjam if Thunderbird can't download a message due to "bad" headers". It also interoperates with a email client on a smartphone a lot better. Just something to think about.
Sorry for hi-jacking the OP's thread but it may be a subject of interest to her/him as well. I try and avoid IMAP as far as possible as nearly all of my e-mail working is done on my own domestic computer. Where possible my accounts are POP and default to downloading messages when received to the laptop then deleting from the server. Where I have to use IMAP I have the same filtering so received messages are again downloaded then deleted from server. I have an IMAP set-up on my phone for my main account so that I can see messages as they arrive if my laptop is closed down but the messages disappear as soon as the POP account on the laptop has downloaded them. I move all messages (sent and received) to local folders ASAP as I would sooner know that I am responsible for their security and maintenance (on a domestic backed up system so not high on the list of potential targets for bad actors) rather than relying on a provider's system which is no doubt very security conscious but is bound to be under attack from bad actors on an ongoing basis. The question I have is about e-mails sent from various different machines on an IMAP account. Is it possible for me to see those from other machines on my main domestic system and automatically move them to my local folders rather than leaving them on the provider's servers?
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tanstaafl
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Re: simpler way to access gmail?

Post by tanstaafl »

"The question I have is about e-mails sent from various different machines on an IMAP account. Is it possible for me to see those from other machines on my main domestic system and automatically move them to my local folders rather than leaving them on the provider's servers?"

Yes. You can configure "copies & folders" in a IMAP (or POP) account to save the copy of a sent mail in a folder in a different account such as the Sent folder in "Local Folders".

If you have multiple PCs you might want to use a profile on a file share so that every machine on that local network can access all of the locally saved messages. That doesn't require a dedicated server, just that one of your PCs is always on so that its file share is available. Your file share isn't available over the Internet, just your local network. However, if you decide to use a profile on a file share you don't want to have multiple machines trying to use Thunderbird at the same time due to file locks.

The Thunderbird project is planning on adding support for Firefox Sync (calling it Mozilla Sync) so that you can share Thunderbird profiles with all of your devices. This appears to be driven by their recent decision to support a Android version of Thunderbird (based on modifications to the existing K-9 email client). It would be a optional feature.

https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/11/firefox-sync-privacy/ Firefox Sync
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16560878
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tanstaafl
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Re: simpler way to access gmail?

Post by tanstaafl »

"So I am hoping someone can tell me if the settings in my original post are correct and complete or not for POP."

They seem correct but incomplete. I have a POP gmail account that uses pop.gmail.com on port 995 with SSL/TLS and OAuth2. The username is the complete email address. It uses a smtp server entry with smtp.gmail.com on port 465 with OAuth2 and SSL/TLS. You can also use port 567 with StartTLS. I don't like to use StartTLS since you have to trust that Thunderbird will create a failure if it can't upgrade the insecure connection to a secure connection.

https://developers.google.com/gmail/imap/imap-smtp

Thunderbird needs to be able to create a google.com cookie when creating the account, and later on when it eventually needs to (automatically) refresh the OAuth2 token. However it doesn't seem to keep the cookie afterwards.

The whole idea of defaulting to using configuration settings from the Mozilla ISP database is to avoid everybody having to ask what settings to use. Don't get mislead by "ISP" in the name. It seems to have all of the major email providers except for email providers that expect you to have a custom domain (like GoDaddy, HostGator, DreamHost etc.).
Gone Postal
Posts: 501
Joined: December 2nd, 2008, 1:00 pm

Re: simpler way to access gmail?

Post by Gone Postal »

tanstaafl wrote:"The question I have is about e-mails sent from various different machines on an IMAP account. Is it possible for me to see those from other machines on my main domestic system and automatically move them to my local folders rather than leaving them on the provider's servers?"

Yes. You can configure "copies & folders" in a IMAP (or POP) account to save the copy of a sent mail in a folder in a different account such as the Sent folder in "Local Folders".
Got it sorted now. I'd missed the need to subscribe to the sent folder on the server. Thanks for the help you have given to me (and for the huge amount of help that you give to so many people struggling with Thunderbird problems).
karenanne
Posts: 630
Joined: September 18th, 2004, 5:16 am

Re: simpler way to access gmail?

Post by karenanne »

tanstaafl wrote:"So I am hoping someone can tell me if the settings in my original post are correct and complete or not for POP."

They seem correct but incomplete. I have a POP gmail account that uses pop.gmail.com on port 995 with SSL/TLS and OAuth2. The username is the complete email address. It uses a smtp server entry with smtp.gmail.com on port 465 with OAuth2 and SSL/TLS. You can also use port 567 with StartTLS. I don't like to use StartTLS since you have to trust that Thunderbird will create a failure if it can't upgrade the insecure connection to a secure connection.

https://developers.google.com/gmail/imap/imap-smtp
Thank you so much. Some sort of menu is sitting on top of the page you linked to so I can't see most of it, also I have no idea what StartTLS does, so let me ask if the following simple minded directions should do the trick:

Make changes to thunderbird:

Incoming Mail (POP) server:
pop.gmail.com
Something about "SSL/TLS and OAuth2" Does that mean it will ask me if all three are required and I say yes to them?
Port: 995

Outgoing Mail (SMTP) server:
smtp.gmail.com
Requires authentication: Yes
Somehow set port 465 with OAuth2 and SSL/TLS. (is "requires authentication" above setting OAuth2?)
Full name or display name: your name
Account name, user name or email address: your email address
password: your gmail password
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tanstaafl
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Re: simpler way to access gmail?

Post by tanstaafl »

The screen shots in https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/au ... figuration are out of date but still show the gist. Its not going to ask for each setting. Its going to display the default settings and let you edit them if you don't like them.

The main thing you need to do is click on the radio button to change from IMAP (the account type it defaults to) to POP.

You need to specify what mail server to use (pop.gmail.com) and what to do for connection security (ssl/tls) and authentication (OAuth2) when adding an account. However it should get those values from the Mozilla ISP database for you when you select the account type and all you need to do is essentially say yes, use them.
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tanstaafl
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Re: simpler way to access gmail?

Post by tanstaafl »

StartTLS means that the program initially makes a insecure connection and then attempts to upgrade it to a secure connection using the TLS protocol. If it succeeds you get the same result as if you initially make a secure connection using TLS.

SSL/TLS is actually TLS nowadays, SSL is obsolete/insecure.

I've read stuff such as https://serverfault.com/questions/10560 ... deprecated where they claim that StartTLS is starting to be deprecated. I always choose SSL/TLS as its safer (makes man in the middle attacks harder etc.) and I gain nothing by making a insecure connection and upgrading it rather than making a secure connection.

https://serverfault.com/questions/52380 ... an-tls-ssl
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