Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Discussion of third-party/unofficial Firefox/Thunderbird/SeaMonkey builds.
Locked
User avatar
patrickjdempsey
Posts: 23686
Joined: October 23rd, 2008, 11:43 am
Location: Asheville NC
Contact:

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by patrickjdempsey »

LOL. Welcome to the internet, newfrogs.
Tip of the day: If it has "toolbar" in the name, it's crap.
What my avatar is about: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/sea-fox/
User avatar
Trippynet
Posts: 163
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 1:59 am

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by Trippynet »

LoudNoise wrote:Also, all software companies have strict limitations and hoops to jump though before they will allow people to view security issues (including us and our major software never connects to the internet) for the very good reason that otherwise they would be giving folks the recipe to compromise their software. It sounds like Moony finally got this privilege. You complaint seems to be limited that they required him to jump through the same hoops as they require almost everyone else to go through.


Read it again. He did not get the privilege. The only way he got access to the info is because Mozilla patched it and released the information along with the update for Firefox - meaning quick/feverish work to patch PM now that the vulnerability has been made public.

His complaint is that their vetting procedure effectively requires you to be an employee of MozCo (near enough anyway). Don't get me wrong, I fully understand why a thorough vetting procedure is required and why you cannot just release this information to anyone. However, providing the source code to the browser, then not allowing developers of forks/derivative versions access to the security information unless they effectively work for MozCo seems to be taking things a bit far. What use is a vetting procedure if it's almost impossible to pass? As it was, the vulnerability was patched in PM within a few hours of you posting the link to that thread.

LoudNoise wrote:Even if I thought this was true, which I don't since. as noted, it took me about 10 minutes to customize Firefox to the way I like it
.

Let's be blunt, Australis is a flop. Since it was introduced, Firefox's market share is declining more quickly than it was before it was introduced. It clearly has not succeeded in bringing new users to the platform in any sizable way, but has instead driven away plenty of long-term users who are just sick and tired of having to apply extra add-ons to fix Mozilla's latest bout of idiocy. The fact that even yourself as a moderator on one of Mozilla's biggest fan-base sites has to spend a chunk of time applying addons and customisations to push the UI back into a sensible state is a testament to this.

My problem with Mozilla is that I currently have zero confidence in their development ability. They seem completely detached from reality and don't seem to have any idea why Firefox is hemorrhaging market share or how to reverse it - at least, that's the impression they give. They live in their own closed-off world where they still seem sure that Australis is a brilliant and perfectly-implemented thing, despite feedback and market share suggesting otherwise. Even Microsoft were big enough to admit that Metro had failed and that a substantial amount of U-turns and tweaks were required to fix things and win back market share.

Windows 8 incidentally is a good example as to why your "just use CTR" logic is flawed. There are plenty of tools for Windows 8 which add back the start menu and fix some of the other main criticisms, however a suitably large number of the people out there don't have any interest in using 3rd party tools to fix problems and irritations with a new product. They like to just use something that works correctly for them, straight out of the box. If the product looks like a mess, they'll just jump ship.

mightyglymmd wrote:PM sure seems like a lot of bother to get square tabs and a blue 'old style' menu button.


You miss the point so much it's almost funny. The point is that with the exception of the GUID change, PM is an incredibly easy way to get the classic interface back. You install it, and err... that's it! Unlike Firefox where every few weeks more stuff was moved around, removed, changed, broken, etc. PM just works. For many people, that's all they want. They don't want to spend time hunting through the add-on site to find various add-ons to fix things that the developers suddenly decide need changing, they just want to install a browser and have it work in a sensible and logical way. This is something that the folks at Mozilla sadly do not seem to understand any more.

As for the issue which dug this thread up once more, the vulnerability in PM was promptly patched, so what's the problem again?
User avatar
Frank Lion
Posts: 21173
Joined: April 23rd, 2004, 6:59 pm
Location: ... The Exorcist....United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by Frank Lion »

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke (attrib.)
.
User avatar
LoudNoise
New Member
Posts: 39900
Joined: October 18th, 2007, 1:45 pm
Location: Next door to the west

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by LoudNoise »

Trippynet wrote: various snips


Actually, I use three extensions specific to the V29 changes. I have three more that made specific UI changes before that. The default Firefox theme has always sucked.

I didn't like the look of the old format and changed it by adding the very pretty and well thought out Silvermel. I don't like the look new format and used a couple of extensions to change what I didn't like. In way, I likely have a slightly lighter browser now. Most themes make changes to things I don't really care about. On the other hand, I haven't got a theme that has the gracefulness that SilverMel provided.

Functionally, however, everything is back it's place.

So what did I use? Metal Lion Addressbar Improvements, Address bar Restored and Tabs on Bottom. I added a couple of userChrome hacks. I also went into the hamburger button and made the menu and address menu bars show. I already used Status 4 evar.

Which appears to be the item we haven't been able to pound into your head. You seem to believe that way the browser looks is the application itself. Your problem stems from the fact you don't like the new layout and object that it 1) isn't customizable and 2) the only way to customize it is by using extensions. What you are really saying is that you don't like the new look and think that everyone should be forced to customize that look if they don't agree.

From the start, there have always been look and feel disagreements. I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that a majority of the extensions address UI changes. Theme addressed this on a larger scale. Check out the number of extensions and theme that were offered between the V3.x and V4 UI change.

My problem with Mozilla is that I currently have zero confidence in their development ability.


This might be true but I doubt it. Your problem seems to be specific to the user interface development. If you really have zero confidence in their development ability then you shouldn't be using Palemood either. The security patches PM uses come from that development team. So does anything Moony decides to port to PM.

And your faith in Moony seems to come from the superficial fact that he has preserved the v24 interface. When we point out the underlaying problems with maintaining the old code base without help from the folks who wrote it, these problems being maintenance, falling extension support, the lack of robust testing or QA and many others, your reply is that you have faith. Your faith is limited to the faith that he will maintain the V24 UI.

Unlike Firefox where every few weeks more stuff was moved around, removed, changed, broken, etc. .


Can you back this statement up? I have used the same collection of extensions from word go.


His complaint is that their vetting procedure effectively requires you to be an employee of MozCo (near enough anyway).


It sounded like he got the clearance. That post wasn't as clear as it could have been.

However, “employee of MozCo (near enough anyway)” is pretty meaningless without some context. As far as I know you need to have a clear need. You have to sign a non-disclosure form, which is sensible and very standard in any industry and likely have to agree to share any work you do. There might be other items then this but we have no way to tell from the description given.

As for market share, it had been falling since before V29 was released. Australis didn't really accelerate this fact. There is one reason for this, that reason being Google Chrome. Looking purely at the desktop, Firefox has lost less share than I.E. by a long shot. Opera hasn't lost much share but they didn't have much to begin with. Safari hasn't lost much share either simply because 98% of it comes from Apple users.
Post wrangler
"Choose between the Food Select Feature or other Functions. If no food or function is chosen, Toast is the default."
User avatar
malliz
Folder@Home
Posts: 43796
Joined: December 7th, 2002, 4:34 am
Location: Australia

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by malliz »

postby Moonchild
I was only given access to the security-sensitive bugs VERY recently


Clearly he does have access.
What sort of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.
"Terry Pratchett"
User avatar
LoudNoise
New Member
Posts: 39900
Joined: October 18th, 2007, 1:45 pm
Location: Next door to the west

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by LoudNoise »

That's what I thought. It sounds like Mozilla has made a ton of hoops to jump through if you are not a researcher, someone hired for that specific reason or the owner of the module. Since Moony was asking for full viewing rights to see all of the security issues I would suspect they made him work for it.

Which brings up another question. How did he test to confirm if the fixes took before now? I realize that some of the folks over there (and here too, although they are usually just passing through) are of the "to smart to be fooled" class, this should cause at least a bit of concern.
Post wrangler
"Choose between the Food Select Feature or other Functions. If no food or function is chosen, Toast is the default."
User avatar
LoudNoise
New Member
Posts: 39900
Joined: October 18th, 2007, 1:45 pm
Location: Next door to the west

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by LoudNoise »

Good news. The moodies are starting to link to my posts! http://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php ... 30e#p50821 .
Post wrangler
"Choose between the Food Select Feature or other Functions. If no food or function is chosen, Toast is the default."
User avatar
mightyglydd
Posts: 9813
Joined: November 4th, 2006, 7:07 pm
Location: Hollywood Ca.

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by mightyglydd »

Hmm, I wasn't aware that like Parrots, Penguins can be taught to repeat simple phrases.. How long has this guy been babbling on about Australis ?
Regarding loss of users, maybe Pengie's owner needs to teach him some lines about six week 'ready or not' updates and Brendan Eich.. ;)
#KeepFightingMichael and Alex.
User avatar
Frank Lion
Posts: 21173
Joined: April 23rd, 2004, 6:59 pm
Location: ... The Exorcist....United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by Frank Lion »

mightyglydd wrote:Hmm, I wasn't aware that like Parrots, Penguins can be taught to repeat simple phrases.

I wasn't aware that the new way to deal with attention whores here was to give them all the attention they need and crave, both on a worthless 4 pager on Site Discussion in the past and now covering the same old, same old again here.

To answer your other question - Australis came out on April the 29th 2014 (I wrote the FAQ, so the date sticks in my mind) so yeah, 11 months later they are still at it.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke (attrib.)
.
User avatar
mightyglydd
Posts: 9813
Joined: November 4th, 2006, 7:07 pm
Location: Hollywood Ca.

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by mightyglydd »

#KeepFightingMichael and Alex.
rsx11m
Moderator
Posts: 14404
Joined: May 3rd, 2007, 7:40 am
Location: US

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by rsx11m »

Moonchild wrote:"This is rumor control, here are the facts" - as stated by the warden in Alien 3.

I'm not sure if this quote is a prudent choice for that topic, given that the warden was mainly concerned about the rumors (which were closer to the facts than the facts the warden was trying to "sell") causing panic among that "community" and thus tried to play things down...
User avatar
LoudNoise
New Member
Posts: 39900
Joined: October 18th, 2007, 1:45 pm
Location: Next door to the west

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by LoudNoise »

Rumor: "All your extensions will stop working"
FALSE


Moody should learn to read. As noted, the complex extensions will quit working first and have already stopped working. The simpler ones will stop working as Firefox changes.
Post wrangler
"Choose between the Food Select Feature or other Functions. If no food or function is chosen, Toast is the default."
User avatar
LoudNoise
New Member
Posts: 39900
Joined: October 18th, 2007, 1:45 pm
Location: Next door to the west

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by LoudNoise »

This is interesting. Apparently, Palemood is Moonchild's only source of money. I have to wonder how he supported himself before hand.
Rumor: "Pale Moon has redirected search engine revenue to its developer"
TRUE
Developing Pale Moon is a full-time job (and then some). It is not a hobby; it is a profession. The browser is free for anyone to download and use, and keeping development up, keeping myself supplied with food, paying rent, etc., and paying for the more than a few servers to provide all additional services needed for its presence on the internet (like the website server, release download mirrors, blocklist server, Pale Moon Sync, the forum, automatic update server, ftp, mail server, CDN) all costs money. This money has to come from somewhere besides donations, because donations simply do not cut it. There has to be enough on the other side of the equal sign. What did you expect; that I would continue to fund the Mozilla Corporation from an independent browser by keeping the search parameters to their Mozilla ones?
In addition, every single other alternative browser out there does this to pay for itself, as well.
Post wrangler
"Choose between the Food Select Feature or other Functions. If no food or function is chosen, Toast is the default."
User avatar
patrickjdempsey
Posts: 23686
Joined: October 23rd, 2008, 11:43 am
Location: Asheville NC
Contact:

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by patrickjdempsey »

Rumor: "All your extensions will stop working"
FALSE


Oh really?

Extensions targeting specific target applications:


In other words... EVERY SINGLE extension ever made for Firefox. It was Moonies' decision to change the GUID. He could have chosen to continue to use the same GUID and just used exotic version numbers beginning with 24, but this is path he chose, no sense in crying over it and casting blame elsewhere.

Extensions following the moving target that is Firefox with adding the latest new additions "for developers" to the extension. Many of these extensions do not need the changes or additions to perform their task, and work just fine, provided you use an older version that hasn't been "updated" yet to include the latest coding shinies.


In other words... EVERY SINGLE extension currently being maintained. Mozilla development doesn't just include what you see, a great deal of it involves things you don't see. From API's to CSS and HTML standards, every version something new is added and something old is removed. This is the ENTIRE REASON that extensions have version compatibility checks to begin with. Mozilla also maintains a very strict "Zero Error-Console Warnings" policy. This isn't always to any real obvious direct benefit (especially when it comes to CSS warnings) but it does help simplify the review process. You can of course simply install old versions of extensions compatible with Firefox 24. Of course extensions that rely on 3rd party services may stop working if the service changes.

Extensions written to solely work with the new Australis user interface:


In other words... EVERY SINGLE extension that has toolbar buttons or interacts with the Firefox UI. It's not like developers had much choice. See above about installing old versions.

Of course none of this is every really true anyway, because as MC will readily admit he has modified the UI so it is not identical to Firefox 24 either. So even after finding an extension explicitly designed for Firefox 24 and editing the install manifest so it will install into PM, there is still no guarantee that it will work 100% because PM is not 100% identical to Firefox. And as time passes and PM gets further from Firefox 24, this will only increase.
Tip of the day: If it has "toolbar" in the name, it's crap.
What my avatar is about: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/sea-fox/
User avatar
LoudNoise
New Member
Posts: 39900
Joined: October 18th, 2007, 1:45 pm
Location: Next door to the west

Re: Pale Moon has changed its GUID.

Post by LoudNoise »

I would assume that the changes are so trivial that Matt could change things and make the extensions pseudo. It might be a matter of time management.
Post wrangler
"Choose between the Food Select Feature or other Functions. If no food or function is chosen, Toast is the default."
Locked