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braveheartleo

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Post Posted December 8th, 2010, 9:02 pm

No, you understand it wrong. autoPin means if the url is opened for the 2nd time, it will be automatically pinned, not related to non-closeable. What you refer to as an unclosed pinned tab is a bookmark instead. I may clear the auto-pin list which is stored in bookmarks, when extensions.tabutils.autoPin is set to false. Currently it is not done for I fear that some people may play with these options without enough knowledge.

I may have gotten the purpose wrong, but the unintended behavior can be reproduced for your reference:
1. Make sure that extensions.tabutils.autoPin is set to default (true).
2. Make sure that extensions.tabutils.pinTab.autoProtect is set to false.
3. Open a new tab, then browse to a site.
4. Pin the tab. The tab is then pinned.
5. Now, you should be able to close the pinned tab because Protect is not set. But, upon closing the pinned tab, the tab doesn't actually close, nor does the tab's currently loaded site changes. Instead, what happens is that focus is diverted to another tab, and going back to the pinned tab would initiate an auto-reload, another unintended behavior.

None of the steps involved opening bookmarks, or urls that are already bookmarked.

But:
1. If you set extensions.tabutils.autoPin to false.
2. Go back to the pinned tab that didn't close, unpin it, then pin again.
3. Now try closing the pinned tab, the tab is then closed normally.

So to prevent these behaviors, you must set extensions.tabutils.autoPin to false. Future tabs that are pinned afterwards can now be closed normally, provided that Protect for the pinned tab is _not_ active.

These behaviors have been observed in Firefox 3.6

As you can see, even though the prefs have been intended to address another behavior, it has introduced a side-effect to another function and affected normal closing routines for Pinned tabs.

I haven't explored yet on other functions of the program, but you may want to re-evaluate the prefs so far, pitting them against some sort of a visualization table that will provide an overview of the behavior of these options and how it overlaps or affects the other functions. With the visualization table, it may prove to be helpful in identifying functions to be disabled when one is set, or setting functions when two or more conditions are met.

braveheartleo

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Post Posted December 8th, 2010, 11:07 pm

Thanks for the helpful thoughts. It still depends on how auto-protected/locked pinned tabs should behave and appear.

What if a pinned tab is unpinned? Should auto-protected/locked state be deactivated?

Pin, Lock, and Protect tab functions should be independent of each other. Lock and Protect are additional functions provided by TU to enhance tabbed browsing experience, and as such they are extrinsic properties to Pinned tabs, and the same functions also apply to normal tabs. Why treat Pinned tabs and normal tabs differently when it comes to Lock and Protect functions?

While there exists an automatic Lock or Protect function settings specifically for Pinned tabs, in general there is what I'd like to call a "set automatically [an action], unset manually [an option]" principle. A prime example of this is having software updates to automatically happen. But for those who dislike this behavior, then one can turn off automatic updates in the options. Here the update action is set to be performed automatically (set automatically) or prevent the action by disabling auto-updates from the option (unset manually).

By extension, TU can be made to automatically Lock or Protect Pinned tabs, but one has to manually unset the Locked/Protected tab states from the tab context menu or using shortcuts, or disable auto Lock/Protect behaviors by changing the prefs. From the foregoing discussion, it can be inferred that manually Locking/Protecting normal tabs then pinning, then unpinning the same, will not affect Locked/Protected tab states for the tab. The same goes for pinned tabs that are not auto Locked/Protected by default. Simple and straightforward, don't you think? :-)

What if a pinned tab is restored? Should auto-protected/locked state be activated, despite of manually protected/locked state?

Combining the aforementioned ideas, therefore, if a Pinned tab is Locked, Protected, or both, then unpinning the tab should have no bearing upon the state of the other functions. Restoring Pinned tab will also restore Lock, Protect, or both. Users have the option to manually unset Lock/Protect via menu or shortcuts, or if both functions are set, then choosing to Unfreeze the tab will be the sensible way to deactivate both at the same time. Of course users also have the option to prevent automatic Lock/Protect Pinned tabs via the options, when made available in the future.

There are guiding principles for restoring tab states when sessions are saved, as you can see these among browsers, which I would not go into to save from boring discussions. :-) But, leaving some thoughts to ponder for those inclined in the pursuit, user interfaces are not simply plucked out of thin air, nor just someone else's imagination or bright idea without further consideration, often times scholarly done, on its use, either pratical or economical.

You may want to add another exception for not restoring Locked or Protected states during session restores, but do keep in mind that the more exceptions are made, then there is chance for unintentional behaviors or side-effects to occur. The probability of mixing and matching options increase as new ones are introduced, and within that probability is the chance for something to go wrong.

Now, when it comes to the manual version of Lock and Protect, then there should be no difference between the two except for the reason of automation. The auto functions should make sure that the manual functions show the same state as the auto functions, like auto-protect enabled for pinned tabs should show Protect tab as enabled in the tab menu of the pinned tab, but not for a normal tab that isn't protected, etc. And let us not forget the other functions provided in TU, especially the Unfreeze tab that is related to Lock or Protect tabs.
Last edited by braveheartleo on December 9th, 2010, 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

braveheartleo

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Post Posted December 8th, 2010, 11:29 pm

ithinc wrote:Thanks for the helpful thoughts. It still depends on how auto-protected/locked pinned tabs should behave and appear. And I'm not good at making icons. Even the status bar buttons are still lack of proper icons.

You are most welcome. Probably by now you know how auto-protected/locked pinned tabs should behave and appear. Auto or not, they shouldn't be treated as separate functions, especially if the distinction is only in terms of automation.

Regarding the icons, it shouldn't need to be anything fancy, but just a small dot filled with a single web color, and offer additional colored icons for mixing and matching with browser themes if you'd like. Of course it would be nice to have suggestions from graphic designers who can add something more to this otherwise plain representation.

If you'd like to pursue the suggestions I have given, I'd be willing to provide clarifications on them if needed.

braveheartleo

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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 2:28 am

ithinc wrote:autoPin means if the url is opened for the 2nd time, it will be automatically pinned

Is it correct to assume that the various extensions.tabutils.autoXXX are there for having the same behavior as stated above for XXX?

In particular, why is there a need for autoPin? Does it exist to work around a problem? In Chrome for example, if I have about:version as a pinned tab, then open a new tab and browse to about:version again, then it doesn't matter if I have an existing pinned tab that points to the same address, as the new tab can stand alone by itself, and I can independently pin or unpin the new tab irrespective of existing tabs that load the same content. What TU is trying to do unecessarily introduces further work on tab handling.

ithinc
 
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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 6:07 am

braveheartleo wrote:Is it correct to assume that the various extensions.tabutils.autoXXX are there for having the same behavior as stated above for XXX?

Sure.

braveheartleo wrote:In particular, why is there a need for autoPin? Does it exist to work around a problem? In Chrome for example, if I have about:version as a pinned tab, then open a new tab and browse to about:version again, then it doesn't matter if I have an existing pinned tab that points to the same address, as the new tab can stand alone by itself, and I can independently pin or unpin the new tab irrespective of existing tabs that load the same content. What TU is trying to do unecessarily introduces further work on tab handling.

It is for so-called "cross-session pinned tabs". If you open a second window, you'll have the pinned tabs icons there. Besides, if you close your firefox without saving session, you'll still have those icons for pinned tabs. You can still independently pin or unpin the new tab. TU will remember it when you pin or unpin a tab.
If you faviconize, hide or lock a tab, probably you'll want the same url being handled the same way in the future.

ithinc
 
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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 6:48 am

braveheartleo wrote:In my opinion, if the difference between a Pinned tab and Faviconized tab is just tab arrangements (Pinned tabs are automatically put to the leftmost part of the tab bar and cannot be dragged for other arrangement, while Faviconized tab allows for arrangement anywhere on the tab bar, except to the Pinned tabs group), then perhaps we can simplify both functions as Pin tab, and make an exception via an option to allow tab arrangement with normal tabs for Pinned tabs.

Maybe you have heard these extensions: App Tabs, FaviconizeTab, PermaTabs Mod. App tabs and faviconized tabs are for different purpose as I know.

braveheartleo wrote:If you would recall that even before browsers had a Pinned tab function natively, add-ons provided a way to _only_ display tab icons, but the tabs still behave like normal tabs and stay in place, and that they can be dragged around for arrangement. Now that Pinned tabs are native to some browsers, including the upcoming Firefox 4, and by approriately calling it as such, it is pinned in a group in the tab bar, separating it from normal tabs for management, then add-ons that faviconize tabs are no longer needed.

This is false.

braveheartleo wrote:I will follow suit with how browsers implement Pinned tabs function, but for users that request the ability to arrange Pinned tabs with normal tabs on the tab bar, then it's up to you if you will make an exception, but there must be sensible reason to and good research put on why current and upcoming browsers do not support this behavior.

Many features of TU won't be included in the upcoming Firefox 4, but they're favored.

braveheartleo wrote:I did notice, however that the Pinned tabs couldn't be arranged in their group. I'm not sure if this is a technical limitation for TU in Firefox 3, but if not, then at least make it so that Pinned tabs may be arranged in their group. The option for allowing Pinned tabs to be arranged with normal tabs just like Faviconized tabs, whether implemented or not, should have no bearing on the ability to arrange Pinned tabs.

If you close the pinned tab, the left bookmark icons could be rearranged. The loose pinned tabs without linking to a bookmark icon could be rearranged. Of course most ideas could be implemented, but most of the users don't want TU over-bloated.

It's not easy for me to respond to your long posts point-to-point. Please make your further replies shorter, and keep every reply one subject.
Post feature requests to http://tabutils.uservoice.com.
Post bug reports to https://github.com/ithinc/tabutils/issues.

braveheartleo

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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 6:58 am

ithinc wrote:It is for so-called "cross-session pinned tabs". If you open a second window, you'll have the pinned tabs icons there. Besides, if you close your firefox without saving session, you'll still have those icons for pinned tabs. You can still independently pin or unpin the new tab. TU will remember it when you pin or unpin a tab.

This is an extra feature not currently implemented in browsers I believe. While the idea behind the feature is nice, it does put more tab handling work for TU. And unfortunately, it affects closing Pinned tabs that are not Locked when this feature (autoPin) is set to true, even without engaging in cross-session browsing.

ithinc
 
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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 6:58 am

braveheartleo wrote:I may have gotten the purpose wrong, but the unintended behavior can be reproduced for your reference:
...
5. Now, you should be able to close the pinned tab because Protect is not set. But, upon closing the pinned tab, the tab doesn't actually close, nor does the tab's currently loaded site changes. Instead, what happens is that focus is diverted to another tab, and going back to the pinned tab would initiate an auto-reload, another unintended behavior.

The tab is closed properly. A bookmark icon is left. This is again for the so-called "cross-session pinned tabs". If this is not expected, it could be discussed. This is not related to the "extensions.tabutils.autoPin" option. TU had behaved this way before the autoPin option was added.

braveheartleo wrote:I haven't explored yet on other functions of the program, but you may want to re-evaluate the prefs so far, pitting them against some sort of a visualization table that will provide an overview of the behavior of these options and how it overlaps or affects the other functions. With the visualization table, it may prove to be helpful in identifying functions to be disabled when one is set, or setting functions when two or more conditions are met.

They work on their own. Point it out if you find any overlapping, and I will explain or improve it.
Post feature requests to http://tabutils.uservoice.com.
Post bug reports to https://github.com/ithinc/tabutils/issues.

braveheartleo

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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 7:02 am

App tabs and faviconized tabs are for different purpose as I know.

Okay, so in the context of Tab Utilities, what essesntial distinction does a Pinned tab has over a Faviconized tab?

ithinc
 
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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 7:17 am

braveheartleo wrote:
App tabs and faviconized tabs are for different purpose as I know.

Okay, so in the context of Tab Utilities, what essesntial distinction does a Pinned tab has over a Faviconized tab?

Faviconized tabs are used to shorten tabs and pinned tabs are used to fix the position and keep tabs open. The essential distinction is that pinned tabs have fixed position and are optional uncloseable and undivertible. You may give Firefox 4 beta a try, to see what Mozilla will provide.
Last edited by ithinc on December 9th, 2010, 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post feature requests to http://tabutils.uservoice.com.
Post bug reports to https://github.com/ithinc/tabutils/issues.

braveheartleo

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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 7:19 am

The tab is closed properly. A bookmark icon is left. This is again for the so-called "cross-session pinned tabs". If this is not expected, it could be discussed. This is not related to the "extensions.tabutils.autoPin" option. TU had behaved this way before the autoPin option was added.

I don't know by what definition you go by when you say that the "tab is closed properly." If it was closed properly, then the physical manifestation of the tab should have been erased from the tab bar. And that previously loaded site that the tab has should have been closed.

But instead it does leave that "bookmark icon" as you call it, which I have no idea what part of it is being a bookmark. Also, if the tab is _indeed_ closed properly, then how come does it still loads the site that I visited when I click the tab? I close a tab for the reason that I no longer wish to navigate to the site and remove it from my browsing session. If you can recall this is the default behavior of browsers when closing tabs - to close a web page. Unfortunately, TU is trying to redefine this behavior, at least in the case of pinned tabs.

braveheartleo

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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 7:30 am

Faviconized tabs are used to shorten tabs and pinned tabs are used to fix the position and keep tabs open. The essential distinction is that pinned tabs have fixed position and are optional uncloseable and undivertible.

Thank you for the response. However, would you consider these following points?

a) Does not the Pin tab also shorten tabs, like what the Faviconize tab does?
b) You say that Pin tabs have optional unclosable and undivertible functions. Does not the Faviconize tabs have the same using Protect/Lock tab menus?

So if both Pin tab and Faviconize tab shorten the tab, and both Pin tab and Faviconize tab have the optional function to be unclosable or undivertible, then the question is, what is left that separates the Pin tab from the Faviconize tab?

The answer: arrangements, just as I have correctly and previously stated.
Last edited by braveheartleo on December 9th, 2010, 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

braveheartleo

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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 7:34 am

You may give Firefox 4 beta a try, to see what Mozilla will provide.

Oh I have tried Firefox 4, and it does have a Pin tab function. So don't you wonder why it doesn't have a Faviconize tab?

The simple reason is that what distinguishes the two, unfortunately is just the mere ability to arrange the tabs in the tab bar.

braveheartleo

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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 7:46 am

I believe that there is difficulty in making a point, especially if the enemy is a language barrier.

So I will be taking a break before things go somewhere else. I hope that some of the points I'm trying to make got through. I always have in mind the greater benefit of TU.

ithinc
 
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Post Posted December 9th, 2010, 10:23 am

braveheartleo wrote:I don't know by what definition you go by when you say that the "tab is closed properly." If it was closed properly, then the physical manifestation of the tab should have been erased from the tab bar. And that previously loaded site that the tab has should have been closed.

But instead it does leave that "bookmark icon" as you call it, which I have no idea what part of it is being a bookmark. Also, if the tab is _indeed_ closed properly, then how come does it still loads the site that I visited when I click the tab? I close a tab for the reason that I no longer wish to navigate to the site and remove it from my browsing session. If you can recall this is the default behavior of browsers when closing tabs - to close a web page. Unfortunately, TU is trying to redefine this behavior, at least in the case of pinned tabs.

I have explained that essentially the left icon is a bookmark, not a tab. When you click the bookmark, a new tab is spawned and covered on the bookmark. A pinned tab is different from a normal tab. Even if closed, people still want to revisit it easily. You may think over why you need to pin a tab.

And you may have interest in reading Phantom Tabs In Google Chrome. This is what I was inspired by.
Last edited by ithinc on December 9th, 2010, 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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