Bug 72540 - Web pages should have persistent scrollbars.

[Anne van Kesteren]

mw: "although they take a bit long to get the recommendations out of the door"; I would say: try writing your own. I think you don't have a clue how hard it is to write a solid specification and after that: writing the required test cases.

Ontopic: someone should implement overflow-x and overflow-y and everyone can use it for their homepage or in their user preferences.

[Anne van Kesteren]

Talking about it won't help you (or anyone else) since the majority is against it.

[mw22]

mw: "although they take a bit long to get the recommendations out of the door"; I would say: try writing your own. I think you don't have a clue how hard it is to write a solid specification and after that: writing the required test cases.

And you have a clue?

[mw22]

Talking about it won't help you (or anyone else) since the majority is against it.

And you know what the majority want?
Not talking about it isn't certainly gonna help.

[netdragon]

Ontopic: someone should implement overflow-x and overflow-y and everyone can use it for their homepage or in their user preferences.

I agree. If this were implemented, then people might not care what the default is because quality web pages might always override it. Though, I don't think they can override it for the viewport.

Is there anything about the viewport in the spec? Does overriding the HTML element deal with the viewport?

Talking about it won't help you (or anyone else) since the majority is against it.

This borderline trolling one-liner adds little of value to the conversation.

If you want to say, "I think the majority is against it, then that's valid." You said something like, "Shut up because I believe the majority is for it." What the hell is that? Most of the web community is unimformed to say the least. You really don't know what the majority is for because the majority of the web hasn't really been asked.

Btw, since the majority uses IE, I'd say the majority is for persistant scrollbars.

[Anne van Kesteren]

Btw, since the majority uses IE, I'd say the majority is for persistant scrollbars.

You know that doesn't make sense?

Yes overriding the HTML or even BODY element will make the 'overflow' property be applied to the viewport. This is not the case for XHTML or XML documents (which IE doesn't support), but there is a bug for ::-moz-viewport for that, which will become eventually ::viewport, when the pseudo element is specced.

[netdragon]

Eric Herman, can you please give some examples of complaints of why corporate executive users who probably barely know the first thing about computers won't use Mozilla for such a fussy little thing? I mean, I agree some people are fussy about silly things, but about scrollbars popping in and out? Sure, it can be an annoyance, I know, but maybe you can tell them how you save them money by not having to waste your time installing virus and spyware blockers and stuff like that?

I agree we should have persistant scrollbars, but can't you talk some sense into these guys that won't use Mozilla because it doesn't have them?

[mw22]

Well, I just tried it in my userContent.css:

Code: Select all

textarea{overflow:-moz-scrollbars-vertical;}
:root{overflow:-moz-scrollbars-vertical;}

It works fine here. But I don't like the scrollbar widget in this case, because there is not a distinction between when I can scroll with it and when not.

Btw, since the majority uses IE, I'd say the majority is for persistant scrollbars.

You know that doesn't make sense?

That makes sense as in:
"Why can't I right click in my bookmarks menu in Mozilla and get a context menu just like in IE"
Or:
"Why does it take so long for Mozilla to start, IE loads almost instantly"

[mw22]

Something like

Code: Select all

scrollbar[curpos="0"] thumb{visibility:hidden;}

is also working inside usercontent.css

But unfortunately, I don't think there is a way with css to know when the thumb has reached also the end of the slider.

[Gmork]

Are you for or against persistent scrollbars, and why?

I am for persistent scrollbars.

Consistency wins over aesthetics in this context. With "adaptive (vertical) scrollbars", the objects are shifted depending on the height, which is variable.

This is merely a matter of aesthetic (adaptive scrollbars / "clean view") versus consistent behaviour (persistent scrollbars).

I don't understand why there has to be a debate about it, leave it an option. This discussion was started in 2001?

PageScrollbarVertical = Adaptive
PageScrollbarVertical = Always (Gmork Default)
PageScrollbarVertical = Never

That's the only thing bothering me, at least.

Yes? Maybe? No?

-

Not to mention the fact - if we must have permanent vertical scrollbars (which I'm hoping we don't) I'd pretty much hope that we'd have permanant horizontal scrollbars for consistency sake. I'd hate them even more but to not have them would simply be strange. All arguments for / against permanent vertical scrollbars apply equally to permanent horizontal scrollbars. Does that change anybody's opinion?

The horizontal scrollbar does not introduce a content-shift like the Firefox-implementation of the (adaptive) vertical scrollbar. That's the real issue here (I dearly hope).

-
Some 'discussion' about the same issue here:
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic ... 491#683491

[Dunderklumpen]

Make it optional and set to off as default. Problem solved. Most users does not care, have not and will not notice. Users that does care can switch scrollbars on.

[Friendly Troll]

Dunderklumpen and Gmork both make sense.
Personally I am very much against persistent scrollbars. Actually I am against scrollbars. I usually scroll with my keyboard ( - great invention, the keyboard). So for scrollbars it would be a good thing to have it user configurable in the Preferences. As an average ignorant user I would really detest to have to edit userContent.css. So something like:

PageScrollbarVertical = Adaptive
PageScrollbarVertical = Always
PageScrollbarVertical = Never (F Troll default)

PageScrollbarHorizontal = Adaptive
PageScrollbarHorizontal = Always
PageScrollbarHorizontal = Never (F Troll default)

Sincerly
/Troll (Yes, that's my real name.)

[Gmork]

Thanks to the rfrangioni77 initiative and the Mook & DeFr response, this is not an issue for me anymore. Although the scrollbar isn't grayed out when not needed, it doesn't matter to me, because I'm not that obsessed with aesthetics (at least not in this context).

-

I'll guess I'll post the summary here, for those interested in changing this behaviour.

1. Find out where Firefox stores your profile.
2. In the subfolder chrome, create a text file named userContent.css, if not already present.
3. Open the file and add one of the following. Add 3.a and 3.c if you want them both persistent.

3.a Persistent vertical scrollbar. *

Code: Select all

html {overflow: -moz-scrollbars-vertical !important;}

3.b No scrollbars whatsoever:

Code: Select all

html {overflow: -moz-scrollbars-none !important;}

3.c Persistent horizontal scrollbar. **

Code: Select all

html {overflow: -moz-scrollbars-horizontal !important;}

4. Save the file, then run Firefox. You probably need to quit all instances of Firefox first.

-

There seems to be a side-effect here.

* If I specify a persistent vertical scrollbar, the horizontal scrollbar does not appear when page content exceeds visible page width.

** If I specify a persistent horizontal scrollbar, the vertical scrollbar does not appear when page content exceeds visible page height.

Is this an error? It reminds me of the common "assign" versus "logical or."

Of course, I could now have both the horizontal and vertical scrollbars persistent (or none at all).

-

So for scrollbars it would be a good thing to have it user configurable in the Preferences. As an average ignorant user I would really detest to have to edit userContent.css.

No complaints here.

-

Actually, now I found Troll's setting interesting. Oh well.

Anyway, I'm pretty much finished with this now.

'love the browser.

Sincerely,
Gmork

[mw22]

Ok, scrollbar[maxpos="0"] works. I've found this thanks to http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76197 - Scrollbars should look disabled when there's nowhere to scroll
So it is already possible to make the thumb inivsible when there is nowhere to scroll
Something like this in your userContent.css does the trick:

Code: Select all

textarea{
overflow:-moz-scrollbars-vertical;
}
scrollbar[maxpos="0"] thumb{
visibility:hidden !important;
}

textarea{overflow:-moz-scrollbars-vertical;} is dangerous as x-overflowing content will not be visible that way, but it seems that bug 72747 will soon be fixed, and then it would be possible to use overflow-y: scroll.
I really hope some theme maker will pick this up some day.

[iamhere]

It's not that I want to see the scrollbars always showing just for myself. I want the sites I have created not to reflow as the scrollbars pop in, hence I want the scrollbars always showing. I also want them to look disabled when there is nowhere to scroll.

The list of sites that are meant to show with the vertical scrollbar always on are way too many. (If anyone cares I can start compiling a list). By that I mean that the whole site, in Firefox/Mozilla, jiggles right and left when the scrollbar appears and dissappears on different pages. It doesn't happen in IE (5.x and up) or Safari. And it is sure the preferred behaviour of those who did the site. And I bet that it is probably the preferred solution for those visiting those sites. If nothing else, Mozillazine could run a quick poll about it?

Now, there is a workaround, not a fix. The workaround is to add

Code: Select all

body {overflow:-moz-scrollbars-vertical;}

to the page one is designing so that it will show as in IE/Safari. The workaround is not complete because (and I hope someone will help me out here) the scrollbar doesn't look disabled. It is then a mediocre workaround. If there is actually a way to fix it (in Firefox 1.0) it would then be a nice workaround. In trunk there is currently a nice workaround since the fixing of bug 76197.

I have tried the code mentioned in a previous post in Firefox 1.0:

Code: Select all

scrollbar[maxpos="0"] thumb {
  visibility:hidden !important;
}

But it didn't make the thumb dissappear.

Even if someone has a way of making the scrollbar look disabled it will be a workaround, and a nice one, but not a fix. A fix would involve fixing bug 72540. The fix would imply that those pages that are not "fixed" to work under Firefox, would still show up correctly (as meant by the designers). For those who would give their lives to have it without the scrollbars there wouldn't be a problem. They are _all_ knowledge-able enough to modify their browser user_css and have it their way. If they also happen to make websites, though I personally doubt that's the case, they can also add code to it so that the scrollbars don't show up.

Fixing the mentioned bug would also simplify some JS scripting (see bug 48634). Mainly by solving the issue of "the width of a page cannot be calculated by any means (even the browser does not know it until the page is fully loaded)," among others. That bug would still need fixing, I reckon.

It would also keep us from adding non-standard css to cope with it in Firefox (overflow: -moz-scrollbars-vertical).

As for why the same doesn't apply to the horizontal bar, to start with, that's not what either IE or Safari do, and those browsers don't because by far most pages out there have a vertical layout, not an horizontal one. It's a question of probabilities not posibilities. How probable is that you will find a webpage with an horizontal layout through your daily browsing? Is it possible? Sure, but not probable.

In any case, happy new year to everyone!

PS. If someone knows how to make the scrollbar disabled, or where I made a mistake in the code shown in previous posts, please advice. Thanks.