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utah
 
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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 12:59 pm

Reading along this long thread... sorry to stir things up again, but I still have a general problem with some aspects in here.

This is the current statement by Axel Hecht, Mozilla Europe [thread like above, p. 17...]:

Warum ebay Deutschland? Weil die an uns (ursprünglich an Robert Kaiser für die deutsche Lokalisierung von Mozilla und an Abdulkadir, die beide unabhängig voneinander das an mich weitergeleitet haben) herangetreten sind. Wir haben etliche Vorschläge diskutiert und werden auch weiter miteinander reden. Das ist keineswegs unabhängig von den Einwänden hier. Unabhängig von diesen Gesprächen wird Funktionalität und Aussehen des Mozilla Firefox von Ben Goodger bestimmt. Und kein searchplugin kommt in den offiziellen Build, nur weil einer mit Geld winkt. Nur für Funktionalitäten, die aus sich selbst heraus den Weg in den Firefox finden, erwägen wir Partnerprogramme oder ähnliches.


Attempt to translate (sorry for the poor quality! - brackets are mine): "Why ebay Germany? Because they contacted us (originally Robert Kaiser [mozilla.kairo.at] for the German Mozilla localisation and Abdulkadir [the translator] who both referred them to me). We [ebay and the people responsible for FF.de] have discussed several suggestions and will continue to do so. This is by no means independent of the objections raised here [in the German forum]. Apart from these talks [w/ ebay] the look and functionality of Mozilla FF is decided by Ben Goodger. And there's no search plugin put into an official build because someone's waving a dollar bill. Only for functions that find their way into FF because of their own quality [literally: by themselves], we consider partner programmes or the like."

My problems are: 1. why is there, generally speaking, a need to have a different searchplugin than the one on Mycroft (I've been using it for ages and it works perfectly fine). 2. why is there a need (or wish) within the Mozilla foundation to cooperate with ebay? [ok, figure that one out: money] 3. What is a "partner programme or the like" and where's the policy that's regulating "partner programmes"?

This all leaves a bad taste (with me). It's not that a searchplugin was added just because a company paid for this (like Axel wrote), but a searchplugin was modified to satisfy the (commercial) needs of a company, i.e. to make clicks countable.

I wouldn't have expected such a thing to be in FF without an explicit statement to the end user. And I'd like it removed asap, not only the reroute to Mediaplex via webtip.ch (which seems to have been removed by now acc. to Axel Hecht), but the entire reroute. Put in the ebay.de plugin that's on Mycroft, or will that cause a problem with ebay having already paid for this feature? (sorry, this is cynical, didn't intend to make it that sharp).

Umko

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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 1:05 pm

My problems are: 1. why is there, generally speaking, a need to have a different searchplugin than the one on Mycroft (I've been using it for ages and it works perfectly fine). 2. why is there a need (or wish) within the Mozilla foundation to cooperate with ebay? [ok, figure that one out: money] 3. What is a "partner programme or the like" and where's the policy that's regulating "partner programmes"?

This all leaves a bad taste (with me). It's not that a searchplugin was added just because a company paid for this (like Axel wrote), but a searchplugin was modified to satisfy the (commercial) needs of a company, i.e. to make clicks countable.

I wouldn't have expected such a thing to be in FF without an explicit statement to the end user. And I'd like it removed asap, not only the reroute to Mediaplex via webtip.ch, but the entire reroute. Put in the ebay.de plugin that's on Mycroft, or will that cause a problem with ebay having already paid for this feature? (sorry, this is cynical, didn't intend to make it that sharp).


very well put!!!
it seems as though the interests of ebay as a business partner are somehow more important than the privacy of the end users.

please, mozilla people, give us a good sound explanation. at the moment i just feel quite disapointed.

rfrangioni77

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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 1:06 pm

Umko wrote:because the problem was not in the german release in itself (ebay.de messed it up really) but in the lack of information from the side of mozilla foundation.


Ok, hang on here.

SOMEBODY clarify. We've got people blaming everyone under the sun except George Bush, and I suspect it won't take too long for someone to blame him for it, too...HOW did the redirect plugin get into the German version of Firefox?

Is it the fault of Mozilla Europe's localization, or eBay?

We're circlejerking each other around here, and everyone's posting different things about what happened.

garyniger
 
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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 1:10 pm

Umko wrote:they never told us that they are being paid for every search we do from the search box. and they never told us how much information do the respective firms get from us. this is what makes me feel bad.

we really need a sound explanation what is really going on with the preinstalled search plugins. this is bad management if you ask me, and i hope for a very fast and very good detailed explanation on the whole "pay-per-search" funding of the mozilla foundation to settle the whole thing.


The problem is as follows:

They (moz-europe) claim that they only wanted to track how many people user the search-bar-plugin to search ebay vs. how many use the URL-bar serach feature.

Instead of using a transparent solution like adding a flag to the URL (http://whatever.ebay.de/whatever?something=foo&firefox=searchbar) they decided to use a opaque server-side tracking solution involving cookies (they claim this has been the wish of ebay).

Umko

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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 1:11 pm

rfrangioni77 wrote:
Umko wrote:because the problem was not in the german release in itself (ebay.de messed it up really) but in the lack of information from the side of mozilla foundation.


Ok, hang on here.

SOMEBODY clarify. We've got people blaming everyone under the sun except George Bush, and I suspect it won't take too long for someone to blame him for it, too...HOW did redirect plugin into the German version of Firefox?

Is it the fault of Mozilla Europe's localization, or eBay?

We're circlejerking each other around here, and everyone's posting different things about what happened.


from what i read in the german forums, it seems that ebay germany just chose this way of counting the people that search from firefox and proposed it to the german localizers, who in turn accepted. they accepted because they felt that this is not different from the way ebay usa functions, just the redirect has a strange name. and this was the case really.

the problem is that nobody was informed about the whole "pay-per-search" thing.

utah
 
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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 1:21 pm

rfrangioni77 wrote:Ok, hang on here.

SOMEBODY clarify. We've got people blaming everyone under the sun except George Bush, and I suspect it won't take too long for someone to blame him for it, too...HOW did the redirect plugin get into the German version of Firefox?

Is it the fault of Mozilla Europe's localization, or eBay?

We're circlejerking each other around here, and everyone's posting different things about what happened.


Wish I *could* blame it on W, really!

Axel Hecht of Mozilla Europe put that redirect in there (at least he stated so). ebay supplied the URL to which the redirect should go. It seems that Mozilla Europe wasn't fully aware of the fact that there's Mediaplex behind the url the redirect went to, and now they changed it so the redirect is only there to count clicks and doesn't go through Mediaplex anymore (as far as I understand matters, being a native speaker). But it's still there. As far as I know, it wasn't ever discussed to just take that **!' redirect out of the plugin.

To sum it up: ebay had a good idea, and Mozilla Europe fell for it. They thought is was only about counting searches from FF searchbar, but now we know there was an extra tracker cookie.

Do I sound like a broken record? I don't expect stuff like that to be in FF without a statement to the end user...

_hb_
 
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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 1:52 pm

utah wrote:
Axel Hecht of Mozilla Europe put that redirect in there (at least he stated so). ebay supplied the URL to which the redirect should go. It seems that Mozilla Europe wasn't fully aware of the fact that there's Mediaplex behind the url the redirect went .....................
To sum it up: ebay had a good idea, and Mozilla Europe fell for it. They thought is was only about counting searches from FF searchbar, but now we know there was an extra tracker cookie.

Do I sound like a broken record? I don't expect stuff like that to be in FF without a statement to the end user...



ok .. go have a look @

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=265522

and you'll find ( scroll down ) the following entry :

------- Additional Comment #7 From Axel Hecht 2004-11-07 10:01 PDT [reply] -------

Created an attachment (id=165027)
add wikipedia.de, fix search engines, make ebay use tracker, good bookmarks



####################################

So why do you think he made ebay use tracker

Not knowing what its all about ?

sorry .. ROFLMAO

have a look @ all the *.src files in the searchplugins folder ( german firefox version only )

You'll find that each&every *.src is commented at least with the authors name ...
download other .. have a look ...

which *.src do you think is NOT COMMENTED ?

Gingerbread_Man

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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 1:59 pm

utah wrote:To sum it up: ebay had a good idea, and Mozilla Europe fell for it. They thought is was only about counting searches from FF searchbar, but now we know there was an extra tracker cookie.


So you're saying the German developers didn't test out the search plugin before reasing the German Firefox, didn't notice the redirect to Mediaplex and the tracking cookie it leaves behind? I doubt that! :doubt:

What I don't understand is why Mozilla needs to get cash from searches in the first place. Last I read about it, CNN described it as a "non-profit organization." Why would a non-profit organization need to make cash from people using their browser? Because it isn't enough that people put their trust in them, bought t-shirts, guidebooks and the like? Or because the 10-15 permanent staff need to line their pockets? Someone please explain [-o<
Gingerbread Man's posts, 2004-10-06 through 2005-08-12.

guest123

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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 2:12 pm

I am still interested in 1 thing which is indirectly related to this issue: Does Firefox get $$ from google if we make search from the firefox default home page?
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 Firefox/1.0.7

_hb_
 
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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 2:15 pm

GingerbreadMan wrote:
utah wrote:To sum it up: ebay had a good idea, and Mozilla Europe fell for it. They thought is was only about counting searches from FF searchbar, but now we know there was an extra tracker cookie.


So you're saying the German developers didn't test out the search plugin before reasing the German Firefox, didn't notice the redirect to Mediaplex and the tracking cookie it leaves behind? I doubt that! :doubt:

What I don't understand is why Mozilla needs to get cash from searches in the first place. Last I read about it, CNN described it as a "non-profit organization." Why would a non-profit organization need to make cash from people using their browser? Because it isn't enough that people put their trust in them, bought t-shirts, guidebooks and the like? Or because the 10-15 permanent staff need to line their pockets? Someone please explain [-o<



Please read my posting : Nov Wed 17th 2004 12:52pm call a spade a spade and stop guessing

And then . WHY shouldn't it be good to have some revenues from ebay / google et.al ? moziilla.org mozilla_europe . .they all need money to keep things working !

The only problem is this : THEY SHOULD HAVE TOLD THE USERS BEFORE INSTALLING !!! or have the user to reject this option or to OPT IN this option !

AND YES : THEY KNEW ABOUT TRACKING BEFORE ! see above mentioned posting

garyniger
 
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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 2:21 pm

guest123 wrote:I am still interested in 1 thing which is indirectly related to this issue: Does Firefox get $$ from google if we make search from the firefox default home page?


Yes, but for some strange reasons the usual Mozilla-zealots are more often than not also Google-zealots, so this is ok.

Some engines in the search-bar (Google, Amazon, Yahoo! /nd now eBay) generate revenue for Netscape (or the so-called Mozilla "Foundation"), but the eBay-plugin was the only plugin that redirected users through a third party site (which the German responsibles claim belongs to eBay).

danny_w
 
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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 2:26 pm

garyniger wrote:
guest123 wrote:I am still interested in 1 thing which is indirectly related to this issue: Does Firefox get $$ from google if we make search from the firefox default home page?


Yes, but for some strange reasons the usual Mozilla-yealots are more often than not also Google-zealots, so this is ok.

Every engine in the search-bar generates revenue for Netscape (or the so-called Mozilla "Foundation"), but the eBay-plugin was the only plugin that redirected users through a third party site (which the German responsibles claim belongs to eBay).
How does every engine in the search-bar generate revenue for Netscape? I'm not saying it doesn't, but I'm new to this open source stuff. I would never have expected any such thing (and am quite surprised at the prospect), but I read somewhere earlier somebody else said a similar thing. Educate me please.

fallsroad
 
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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 2:33 pm

garyniger wrote:
guest123 wrote:I am still interested in 1 thing which is indirectly related to this issue: Does Firefox get $$ from google if we make search from the firefox default home page?


Yes, but for some strange reasons the usual Mozilla-zealots are more often than not also Google-zealots, so this is ok.

Some engines in the search-bar (Google, Amazon, Yahoo! /nd now eBay) generate revenue for Netscape (or the so-called Mozilla "Foundation"), but the eBay-plugin was the only plugin that redirected users through a third party site (which the German responsibles claim belongs to eBay).


Are you sure Mozilla makes money on any searches initiated, as the above poster asked,from the "firefox default home page" as opposed to the google search box integrated in Firefox?

FWIW, I trust ebay as far as I can throw my house. Google, perhaps as far as I can throw my car. :)

Thanks.

utah
 
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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 2:45 pm

_hb_ wrote:And then . WHY shouldn't it be good to have some revenues from ebay / google et.al ? moziilla.org mozilla_europe . .they all need money to keep things working !

No, sorry, I completely disagree here. Taking money from ebay (or other companies) for making changes that ebay asks for isn't what Mozilla foundation should be doing - imho. 1: it makes you dependent. Say, ebay asks for more next time or they won't renew the contract, but you've already spent that money.. 2: I'm donating money to Mozilla foundation, buying t-shirts, spreading FF in my neighborhood exactly *because* I want FF/Mozilla not to be dependent on big companies' money.

The problem is to me not that they're not telling their users about this (this is admittedly a problem, too), but that they're doing it in the first place.
It might well be that there are two different opinions on what OSS should be or shouldn't be in this room, and I'm not trying to convince anybody that mine's the only one. But I think there are lots of people who feel that Mozilla shouldn't do this because it's a violation of what people think is the ethics of the project (this sounds like a philosophy lesson now!)

(Can't we all blame it on Dubya, please?!)

_hb_
 
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Post Posted November 17th, 2004, 2:49 pm

danny_w wrote:
garyniger wrote:
guest123 wrote:I am still interested in 1 thing which is indirectly related to this issue: Does Firefox get $$ from google if we make search from the firefox default home page?


Yes, but for some strange reasons the usual Mozilla-yealots are more often than not also Google-zealots, so this is ok.

Every engine in the search-bar generates revenue for Netscape (or the so-called Mozilla "Foundation"), but the eBay-plugin was the only plugin that redirected users through a third party site (which the German responsibles claim belongs to eBay).
How does every engine in the search-bar generate revenue for Netscape? I'm not saying it doesn't, but I'm new to this open source stuff. I would never have expected any such thing (and am quite surprised at the prospect), but I read somewhere earlier somebody else said a similar thing. Educate me please.


1. Netscape IS NOT mozilla ! ( mozilla derived from the netscape sourcecode .. thats all about )

2. You know what pay-per-click means ?

3. New customers for eBay, amazon etc. ... that means a lot of money to make and part of this money can go under some circumstances to mozilla. Why not ?

4. Even google makes money with people using their sites. You know google adwords ? Here the same thing : more users ==> more customers ==> more money to make.

5. And WHY NOT give the people @mozilla a decent part of that money fpr presenting firefox users a fine way to access eBay ? Every day there are newbees on the net, not knowing much about ebay . .so .. it goes.

6. mozilla.otg does need money. EVERY "non-profit" company needs money : housing, paperwork to be done, lawyers, staff to keep things going. They have to pay that from revenues. Revenues aren't profit !

That is not the problem !

Its all about : they should have told us ( the users ) before and should have let us OPT IN !

got it ? :-)

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