Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Firefox

Discussion of general topics about Mozilla Firefox
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JAB Creations
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Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Firefox

Post by JAB Creations »

Mozilla is the new Microsoft. I have been personally threatened by Mozilla Corporate staff members for reopening bugs in order to have them fixed such as restoring the Go button. What was the point of Firefox to begin with? To have a customizable user experience. So Mozilla decides to copy Microsoft's absolutely atrocious excuse for a GUI (aka UI or UX as some people call it) by moving the buttons all over the place. Many of my clients and even family members actively went ahead to uninstall Firefox 4/5/etc and reinstall 3.6 so their toolbars were back the way I setup for them: so they actually had access to the features visually.

Now some people might say, Firefox is great, why would anyone want to stick to an old version? If you read tech news like I do you come across articles that clarify a huge percentage of non-technical users don't even know about CTRL+F. For technical users like us that's computing 101. For my clients they have actual toolbars but what is Mozilla doing now? They have copied Google's asinine release schedule and now even I'm pissed off. I've had to hack my favorite extensions to set the compatibility to literally over 9000 and sadly that's not me being funny. As a web designer/web developer I have to maintain profiles and I create fresh profiles for each version. As a blogger I'm completely and utterly underwhelmed by Firefox releases. Firefox 5,6,7 and 8 would justify a Firefox 4 release. Big fat version numbers? What technical users here would choose Netscape 4 with it's absolutely atrocious lack of support for CSS over Firefox 1.5 which added support for CSS3 multi-column layout?

The problem with Firefox is Mozilla. Now I'm not saying all the people at Mozilla are on drugs but it's clear that at least the decision makers are. I don't want a new Firefox every other month, half a year is more than enough. When I set my clients toolbars so it's easy for them to use I don't want to have to charge them for my time to redo everything I already did because Mozilla copied Microsoft of all companies. I don't want to deal with account termination threats because I'm actively working to fix bugs so my clients, everyone else and even myself want a better browser.

Numerous people are complaining about Mozilla. Chrome? There are two types of people who use Chrome: the technical enthusiast who doesn't mind Google tracking their every move and people who aren't technically savvy enough to do custom installations of software thus Google being able to replace their browser. THAT is how Chrome is gaining market share. Firefox's toolbars used to be useful, now tabs aren't even in the right spot by default, the bookmarks toolbar (which was broken back in Firefox 3.5 I think) has default junk like IE did back in the day and all the useful GUI options (bookmarks (the REAL bookmarks button), downloads, history, new tab and print) are either not present when they should be or are moved around to mimic Chrome or Microsoft.

So gee, I wonder why people aren't updating from Firefox 3.6, they have no incentive. Mozilla is going to do what Mozilla wants and frankly I think it's time Firefox ditched Mozilla and anyone with who is going to insist that a browser should by default appeal to technical users. If you're a technical user then you know how to customize the browser for your own needs, you know how to work with profiles, you know how to copy and paste, make images of your installation or even entire OS installation. Non-technical users don't even know how to use CTRL+F so obviously software needs to be tailored to work for them by default. Anyone who says otherwise has an agenda hostile towards progress for everyone. A browser should empower people to get work done, not be a barrier.

...and that's why my clients won't update Firefox 3.6 on their own and why I'm really starting to hate Firefox.

And as a followup yes, it is a political notion (just like the removal of icons or text labels to make buttons more difficult for users to easily click on GUI interfaces). It's wholly political and those with the agenda will as always throw insults and make meaningless posts. I've criticized the GUI of Vista and Windows 7 for years and I've had Microsoft employees pretend to be regular users who didn't agree with me in order to convince real people that my opinions were a minority, too bad when they're sitting in their Microsoft office (at 11pm on a Sunday night when it's easy to spot visitors with low traffic) they don't bother to use a proxy so their IP addresses don't resolve to microsoft.com. =D> What I'm saying is the real deal because if it wasn't then people wouldn't be sticking to the way I've setup their computers and their copies of Firefox. Just like I now install Linux distros instead of Windows 7 I have no qualms about installing Opera instead of Firefox should Mozilla continue to be hostile towards, well everyone.

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1633/mozilla.gif

Gee, people won't upgrade so we should totally force it on them! Yeah, that's smooth, like shaving with a cactus smooth.
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Ngamer01
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by Ngamer01 »

Cool story. You're in the wrong place though. -> http://www.mozillazine.org/about/

You want: http://input.mozilla.com/en-US/feedback
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by LoudNoise »

Since Jab is quite aware what mozillazine is this is a fine place for it, advocacy is part of our remit. It might not gain any traction but the posting is fine.
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by Ngamer01 »

Don't get me wrong, Firefox does have it's quirks, but when you have a dozen or more threads pop up with "What's up with Mozilla?" or "Firefox is doomed!" or "I hate Firefox!" (most spawned from Firefox's rapid release system), it gets old.

http://news.yahoo.com/chrome-moves-seco ... 03869.html

Firefox has been bleeding market share since late 2010 originally caused by the severe delays of Firefox 4 and currently caused by the aftermath of switching to a rapid release schedule. If Firefox never changed from Firefox 3.6, it's quite possible these numbers would be worse and Firefox would definitely be in third or fourth place in the market. Mozilla is making radical changes because if you don't adapt, you get left behind. Mozilla doesn't want to be left behind.
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by Grumpus »

It is almost historic watching some of the comment on these changes.
Most of the folks here remember Netscape and the failures with "Communicator."
It's the same "be all end all" concepts and fawning recognition of Microsoft which I believe currently plagues some of the Firefox program.
There's also seems to be a "Hellbent for leather" attitude in the industry as a whole while it dodges and weaves for content control, means to display that content and fluidity of content. Add the manipulation by ISPs to have the softwares comply to their lack of security in order to provide information sources for advertising revenue and other various intelligence/informational concerns and eventually there will be no need for a decent browser, since there will be no more browsers, just a direct feed to every aspect of your lives including your most private of activities, your creations, methods and considerations. This is not tinfoil by any stretch of the imagination since it appears the Internet for all it's chaos is become the very birth place of an authoritarian world which disregards the protections of the individual for the the acquisition of revenue or information which it can transform into revenue, flailing some moralistic flag of openness and access for all, but withing certain boundaries provisioned by ISPs.

I tried the Mozilla version of Firefox 7 and 7.1 which went through a Linux repository but found,as in the past, anything which is placed in Opt files will create some familiar security holes. Partially due to the MS basis of the new version and the refusal to divest the Linux version of all the insecure MS requirements or other access capability for cookies, search engine and software update and the inability to control these.
I tried any number of variations of install to make 7.1 work and I have no doubt there is an 8.0 or something similar floating around for the Opt install. The failure is too visible to ignore and wander on with.
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by dfoulkes »

I generally agree with the need to keep up-to-date with certain changes... especially with security related types... but what I've seen in the latest releases are changes to Status Bar, certain icons/buttons, messing around with a users display format, auto-assumption that by updating a users rev-level that they (the user) would be better off with the Firefox menu-icon and not the "old' menu.

I could go on and on about these 'structure/display" changes but the bottom line here is that a user (millions and millions of them IMHO) DO NOT like to wake up to find that they have to re-learn how to use Firefox ... again, and do not look forward to thinking about what changes to user-format and tools the next release will have.

There are so many posts to this board about stuff like that... it's a waste of time for all and creates a very negative feeling about Mozilla.

As I see it, the final releases of Firefox are reviewed by the same techno people who create it... and that's not a problem BUT as part of that release policy the little-old-lady-from-Pasadena (or maybe more than one) should also be in that final release community.

I'm pretty savvy about this stuff though I gave up the tech-level work long ago but I still retain most of my general-computer/system knowledge but I/We are the minority of the user-types out there in the world... and the rest are the Majority... and if Mozilla doesn't start thinking about them and how they use a browser then Mozilla will lose.
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JAB Creations
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by JAB Creations »

The point of posting here is that real people who aren't Mozilla Corporation employees will get to see and read comments by other real Firefox users. When a corporate agenda is involved the last place you go to deal with it is at the corporation with the agenda. If Mozilla listened to users like myself I wouldn't have had my account threatened; the Go button is broken and they've intentionally left it broken. It's not Mozilla's browser, it's our browser and Mozilla has made it clear that they have no intentions on honoring that notion.

So it took Firefox 4 15 months to be completed, do you code software yourself? Never dealt with unexpected delays? Happens all the time but sometimes the wait is worth it. Fast releases do nothing for Firefox and only gain negative publicity from bloggers like myself.

What posts? You'd have to be following me around stalker-style to see me "constantly complaining". The only thing old is people who don't get it because it's not about you, it's about everyone having what they want, that is the point of a customizable browser. I know it's difficult for some people to realize that their preferences (or total lack of any preferences) means they don't understand other people's positions but if you're not willing to support the browser which these forums now heavily support (since Mozillazine has been around for a long long time) then you're not supporting the spirit for which Firefox represents.

Mozilla is getting left behind because of it's changes, too many and that's the point. Good design doesn't change, it adapts. Change for the sake of change doesn't work. So Microsoft wants everyone to think Microsoft and search but when you go to work do you search for work every time or do you GO? Corporate agendas have taken over and now Firefox will silently and forcefully update everyone's browser which isn't on it's own horrible but what is is the notion that Mozilla will dictate that they can mess with Firefox for the sake of change, mess their toolbars up, invalidate extensions because they release an update every other month with nothing noteworthy to write about and I blame no one for being intolerant of the intolerable.

Chrome is not the threat, Mozilla and it's corporate agenda is. Yeah, "cool story bro", really mature, this isn't a chan site. People matter and their tools matter too. dfoulkes nails it on the head, why relearn something that you've already figured out? A hammer doesn't change though it might adapt (say a leather handle to prevent your skin from flaking off or something). I'm all for adapting when necessary though this change for the sake of change garbage has to stop.
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by Frank Lion »

JAB Creations wrote:The point of posting here is that real people who aren't Mozilla Corporation employees will get to see and read comments by other real Firefox users.

Real people with real lives will not read long posts from strangers. Too many cranks around who don't care if they waste your time with their vapid verbosity.

Here's a general tip for anyone who posts on forums - read your posts out loud, either orally or mentally. If you bore yourself ****less in doing so, then the post is too long.
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by malliz »

Yawn........ JAB Creations KISS or get a Blog.
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by Franadora »

@DennisBrothers -- if the color gradient is your major remaining problem, take a look at Personas. Or create a simple one of the color of your choice. THAT should be an easy fix.

Try https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... stpersona/
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by James »

JAB Creations wrote:I have been personally threatened by Mozilla Corporate staff members for reopening bugs in order to have them fixed such as restoring the Go button. What was the point of Firefox to begin with?

Perhaps maybe you were not following the proper bugzilla etiquette's in dealing with such bugs followup.

JAB Creations wrote:It's not Mozilla's browser, it's our browser

Well that explains your attitude and posting rants here.
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by Handle With Care »

My US$0.02 worth: I also don't particularly care for updates unless an unwanted bug is removed or a desirable feature is added; however, comparing Firefox to Microsoft is absurd. If there is any valid complaint at all (and they are legion) of Microsoft, it's that they don't update often enough. One doesn't usually find Firefox spinning its wheels for years before issuing a fix for a major exploit or other problem, where that's exactly what one finds with Microsoft products. It's months and years of "Ignoring the reports/we'll look into it/fix it in a timely manner/it's a feature, not a bug."
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by Kevin McFarlane »

JAB Creations wrote:So Mozilla decides to copy Microsoft's absolutely atrocious excuse for a GUI (aka UI or UX as some people call it) by moving the buttons all over the place.


Actually, it's more that Firefox (and IE and Opera) has copied Chrome with its "minimalist" UI. And more narrowly, if you look closely, Firefox 4+ directly resembles Opera more so than Chrome.

The rapid release policy is an obvious copy of Chrome. I've no objection to copying as such but it does seem that more thought could have gone in to it. Not everything about Google's approach was worth copying.

Having said that, for my purposes, I have Firefox working just the way I want, but it does take patience of course. If you're the type of person who just uses what's served up for them and does not have the time or inclination to tinker then radical changes hurt.
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by Kevin McFarlane »

Handle With Care wrote:If there is any valid complaint at all (and they are legion) of Microsoft, it's that they don't update often enough. One doesn't usually find Firefox spinning its wheels for years before issuing a fix for a major exploit or other problem, where that's exactly what one finds with Microsoft products.


Roughly speaking Microsoft updates their web apps too infrequently and their desktop apps (i.e., with new versions) too frequently.
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Re: Why people won't upgrade & why I am starting to hate Fir

Post by Kevin McFarlane »

JAB Creations wrote:I have no qualms about installing Opera instead of Firefox should Mozilla continue to be hostile towards, well everyone.


Opera do big changes from time to time as well (such as copying Chrome's minimalist UI). Disgruntled users are just as frequent in the Opera forums as they are here when such changes happen. But Opera, like Firefox, is generally very customisable if you have the patience.

Chrome's weakness (among others) is that it is less customisable than Firefox and Opera, though this doesn't seem to be doing it any harm judging from yesterday's headlines.
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