Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Discussion of general topics about Mozilla Firefox
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Ourph_The_Mingol
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by Ourph_The_Mingol »

Hey mods can we lock this before we are all knee deep in garbage?
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PrimusUltimo
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by PrimusUltimo »

Ourph_The_Mingol wrote:Hey mods can we lock this before we are all knee deep in garbage?
Yes, that's the thing. Someone says something negative about Firefox, you shut it down! Never mind the fact that no one is forcing you to read this topic, and that there are plenty of topics with endless (and pointless) praise for FF57, where you could frolic carefree with the like-minded. If you think that the criticism and discontent is "garbage", and you still find yourself knee deep in it, the problem isn't that the subjects you don't like are here. It's that you keep reading them. I say: Live, and let live. Disagree, and let disagree.

The fanboy/-girl factor on this forum is incredibly high. What's already "knee deep" wherever there has been criticism of Firefox, is the barrage of arrogant dismissal of the criticism, the derogatory descriptions of the critics, and formulaic non-sequitur comments from the fanboys/-girls. Even Apple would be hard pressed to muster such fanaticism. I'm not going to start a rant against Apple, though.

If you have a good reason for why Mozilla didn't make the tiny effort of having a confirmation dialogue, other than simply not caring what the users might want, then enlighten us. If not, let those who wish to try and figure it out. Personally, I've concluded that there was no good reason, and am now trying to work out exactly why Mozilla doesn't care about its users, to what extent it doesn't care, and why it would believe this to be a viable strategy. It's important to me, as it may determine what browser I will be using in the future. Until I've figured it out, I'm looking for relevant input (that is, help; you know, the thing people keep saying this forum is for). Such input is welcome. Calls for censorship to stop the "wrong" input is not.
Kevin McFarlane
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by Kevin McFarlane »

johnkm wrote:However, I am well aware that there will eventually be security issues with 56, so I am now looking to see if Chrome has the add-on functionality that I need.
I have been with Firefox almost from the beginning, so it will be a great pity to find I have to leave it now
There are other Firefox-ish options. Firefox 52 ESR which you can use as a holding position until next May/June until it becomes Firefox 57. In the meantime, the Firefox 57 situation may have improved. More compatible extensions. Improved WebExtensions API.

Or see theThird Party Builds forum here for discussion of Firefox forks such as Waterfox and Pale Moon, who won't be abandoning the old addons model.

But if you do leave the Firefox ecosystem then, besides Chrome, there are Opera and Vivaldi, both of which are more customisable options than Chrome. The latter i particular is probably the best option for a "power" Firefox user.
Kevin McFarlane
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by Kevin McFarlane »

PrimusUltimo wrote:
How come so many posters get into a frenzy pointing out that "this isn't Mozilla", every time someone is critical, yet keeps quiet about that when it's praise to be had?

"FF57 sucks!"
- Hey, get out of here, this isn't Mozilla!
- We're just here to help each other, so stop pointing out problems!
- Off-topic, move on!
- Don't be rude to the developers, who don't read this!
- You're a n00b who can't even script!
I'm not one of the moderators but I agree with them here. You're free to slag off Mozilla, criticise Firefox - and many Firefox fans here do that - but at the end of the day we can't do anything about that here. All we can do is provide workarounds or alternatives to users' problems.

So, if a user turns up here and all they do is moan it doesn't serve any purpose.
"FF57 is great!"
- Yes!
- Love it, love it, love it!
- Everybody should use it!
- Finally, FF looks just like Chrome. This is progress! Hooray for creativity!
- Yes! Now FF looks so fashionable, it'll outcompete all the browsers who look exactly the same!
- It's absolutely brilliant! Why, I've managed to get it working almost as well as before!
- It's great, loosing so much functionality in one go! I'm so relieved, being freed from freedom!
- It's sooooo pretty! I love pretty things...
It seems to be quite a common charge that Chromium-based, or non-Chromium-based, browsers that look like Chrome are just "Chrome clones." This is objectively false. I have almost nothing but Chrome and Chrome clones installed on my PC - Chrome, Opera, Vivaldi, Edge, Firefox 57. All are different in very significant ways.

I don't care about Firefox 57 out-competing Chrome I just want it to be good enough for me to keep using as my primary browser. Despite my grumbles, so far it still is.
TheVisitor
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by TheVisitor »

Time to move this to AfterDark or better yet locked. Like it or leave it... no one really cares.

:locked: Please
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DanRaisch
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by DanRaisch »

How come so many posters get into a frenzy pointing out that "this isn't Mozilla", every time someone is critical, yet keeps quiet about that when it's praise to be had?
Obviously you haven't been on these forums long enough to realize how invalid that characterization is.

There have been many posts along the lines of "Firefox is the best thing ever" or "Thank you for your wonderful work on Firefox" that were answered with something like "We're glad that you find the product useful but we can't take credit for the work because this forum is not run by or formally associated with Mozilla." Replies referring to "getting it working almost as well as before" are usually part of a response offering guidance intended to address extensions that are no longer compatible (and not just due to version 57) or point out that the functionality is still there but requires changes to settings.

As for responses to negative, ranting posts, most regulars on the forum are here to get answers for themselves and share information to help others. Wasting their time reading through long winded posts complaining about things they were not responsible for, hoping to find a question buried somewhere in the screed so they can help may, obviously, be frustrating to volunteers. Should some of the responses to such posts be a bit more measured and less emotional? Yes, but consider that you have a total of 8 posts on these forum while those about whom you are complaining have a thousand times that number, meaning they have seen far too many posts in Support that are a) technically invalid, or b) arrogant and abusive, or c) never get to a question, or d) all of the above. Frustration ensues.
Kevin McFarlane
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by Kevin McFarlane »

It will be locked soon I'm sure.
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LIMPET235
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by LIMPET235 »

Hi PrimusUltimo,
I am not "ganging up on you", just pointing out a few things about this user-to-user help fora.
When "most" people come here, they usually have a problem or 2.
The "regulars" always try their best to glean out any required info that was not included in the original post.
Sometimes this works.....sometimes not.
So, what are the "regulars" to do when no further info is forthcoming?
This is when it starts to get a tad frustrating for them.

Some just leave the OP to their own devices or for someone else to chime in with more suggestions.
In the end, most problems are fixed & the OP goes on his merry way.

I am not going to name another forum I frequent where one "helper" in particular is
totally arrogant in the extreme.
They answer Q's with a "check/search the forum before posting, as this Q? has been asked before"
type reply.
Plus, they never even post a helpful link.
Totally useless to even take the time to post that sort of reply.
Someone else does the follow-up for them.....every time.

We, AFAIK, have hardly, if ever, suggested that the OP does that.

The one thing I have noticed, is that some people do not take the time to read the entire thread & just post their Q?
under a reply that states the suggested fix.

This just contributes to the frustration factor.
We do try our best using this medium.

I've said enough.

I hope you have a safe & joyous Christmas.
[Ancient Amateur Astronomer.]
Win-10-H/64 bit/500G SSD/16 Gig Ram/450Watt PSU/350WattUPS/Firefox-115.0.2/T-bird-115.3.2./SnagIt-v10.0.1/MWP-7.12.125.

(Always choose the "Custom" Install.)
PrimusUltimo
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by PrimusUltimo »

@DanRaisch @LIMPET235

Feel free to "gang up" on me. As long as there are arguments for claims, and reasoning behind the arguments, I can handle it.

I may not have that many posts here, but I have plenty elsewhere. I've even been known to be arrogant and dismissive, myself, though I like to believe that I've been so based on how people make their case, rather than what their case is. I've certainly encouraged people to search the forum, before asking, though I usually also do the search and provide a link, while I'm at it. I have, however, never called for a thread to be locked, simply because I didn't like reading it. I limit myself to either not reading further posts, or asking for the thread to be moved to it's appropriate forum, if it's clearly off topic, or both. Obviously, if it's clearly abusive to specific users, or to named individuals, especially ones who haven't sought attention, that's different; in the latter case, it's even a legal issue. This, however, isn't an abusive thread ("abusive" and "negative" are very different things), it's in the forum for general discussion about Firefox, and the thread is clearly a discussion about Firefox. It's also clearly a discussion that is far from concluded. As far as I can tell, there has been no satisfying explanation for why the simple courtesy of a confirmation dialogue was skipped, with such a major alteration of the product.

So, given that, what's up with the calls to lock it down? Why do more experienced users than me seem to expect it to be locked down at any moment?

Exactly how long one needs to stay on a board, in order to know the general tone, depends entirely on how much that tone varies over time. Perhaps this site is normally more tolerant of negative comments, or normally more dismissive about positive ones. The fact remains, though, that in what I've read, I've seen several calls for locking down threads that have "deteriorated" into criticism, but no calls to lock down threads that have "deteriorated" into praise. I've also noted that the mods seem to accommodate this trend.

I believe that you'd point out your lack of connection to Mozilla, if there was an outright "thank you". I don't believe there would be calls to lock down the thread. I doubt that the normal response to "Firefox is the best thing ever" will be "we're not Mozilla, stop praising the developers to the users of the forum". That's partly based on what I've read, and partly based on the fact that this would be a silly and exaggerated response. Yet, it's the equivalent to the reactions I've already seen multiple times to critical posts.

It's also puzzling that all posts, no matter which forum they're in, seem to be expected to be calls for support/help. For instance, the description of this forum, "Firefox General: Discussion of general topics about Mozilla Firefox", should leave plenty of room for not asking for specific help, and plenty of room for presenting negative criticism. Yet, here we are, with calls for the thread to be locked, and arguments about how the absence of clear questions is annoying.

There's no getting around the fact that this is puzzling.

Christmas time begins earlier every year. A rant about that would definitely be off-topic, though, so: Have a joyful Advent, and a merry Christmas!
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Frank Lion
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by Frank Lion »

PrimusUltimo wrote:So, given that, what's up with the calls to lock it down? Why do more experienced users than me seem to expect it to be locked down at any moment?
Probably because they were expecting me to turn up.

PrimusUltimo wrote:I may not have that many posts here, but I have plenty elsewhere.
Good, then you should have learned by now how to adapt how you write, so as to communicate effectively with the particular people reading your stuff.

But, it would seem you are boring this bunch to death, old chum, and indeed the few posts of yours that I've read do indeed seem mind-numbingly dull. Adapt quickly to writing concisely, informatively and entertainingly here or you'll be exiting stage left quicksmart.

No one gives a damn what you write about Mozilla, just be quicker about it - http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic ... #p12377753
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke (attrib.)
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PrimusUltimo
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by PrimusUltimo »

@Frank Lion
I'm sorry if my writing is boring you, but, you know, you don't have to read it, if you don't want to. I do adapt how I write, according to the community I'm addressing. However, keeping people entertained and placated can't always be the main objective. Apart from that, I'm afraid your problem has more to do with what I'm writing. I adapt that, as well, but only according to the topic, in this case "general discussion of Firefox", and what I believe is important about that topic.

If "no one gives a damn" what I write, then I should be able to write whatever I please, without anyone being bothered by it. Right? So, whatever is going on here, it's not that "no one gives a damn" about what I, the OP, and others have written. On the contrary; they care enough to ask for the mods to shut us down. You yourself care enough to write some hundred words, dig up an old link, and try and teach me how to write and not to write on this forum. Thanks for the link, by the way. To the extent that it's informative, which I assume is why you provided it, it's documentation that the culture of ad hominem attacks on anyone expressing criticism, goes all the way back to 2012 and before. That is, by the way, what we're talking about. The attacks from those wanting to lock the topic, your post above, and the link you provided: They're personal attacks, entirely bypassing the actual topic being discussed.

So, now that we've established that you care, would you mind writing something about why you care, rather than continuing to demand that dissenters be quiet or quieted? Believe it or not, I'm actually interested. So:

Why do you believe that restricting user freedom and choice, even to the extent of not providing that simplest of things, a dialog box, before essentially installing an entirely new browser on peoples system, is a good strategy for Mozilla? Why do you believe they're killing off compatibility and hindering 3rd party development? How does it serve Mozilla's stated agenda? What is the reasonable explanation for why an idealistic, open source, not-for-profit organization would use the same tactics that the most cynical among capitalist corporations use for customer entrapment?

Have a go at giving a reply that is on topic. After all, when writing on any forum, staying on topic is the primary adaptation one must make. I'm sure you know this.
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Robanybody
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by Robanybody »

PrimusUltimo wrote: I may not have that many posts here
Not under this pseudonym anyway
It's just that it's dawned on me that 'zero tolerance' only seems to mean putting extra police in poor, run-down areas, and not in the Stock Exchange.
-- (Terry Pratchett)
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Frank Lion
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by Frank Lion »

PrimusUltimo wrote:You yourself care enough to ... dig up an old link
Don't be too impressed, my memory is good and the unoriginality of people makes it pretty easy.

Watch -
PrimusUltimo wrote:@Frank Lion
I'm sorry if my writing is boring you, but, you know, you don't have to read it, if you don't want to.
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic ... 6#p2653506

PrimusUltimo wrote: Why do you believe that restricting user freedom and ch
Slick, just the fact that for personal use I have been using the SeaMonkey browser for over 3 years should tell all but the feeble-minded all that they need to know about what I think of Firefox and Mozilla.

As for the 'on-topic' of this thread? They should and as is their wont, they didn't, what else is there for a normal person to say?

But, you're right, I do care. I care about my time being wasted and the time of others here and you are not going to waste either here.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke (attrib.)
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DanRaisch
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Re: Would be nice if they would ASK.....

Post by DanRaisch »

. I care about my time being wasted and the time of others here and you are not going to waste either here.
You're right, Frank, because I'm locking this thread as it's clearly become a personal blog rather than anything that might help others.
Locked