Firefox's unusable minimalism problem.

[James]

I find it odd that the only viruses I have had on my computer since using Firefox were all located in the Java folder and came up by three different scanners as trojans yet there were no viruses elsewhere on my computer.

Since Java is implemented in IE, Gecko browsers, Opera, and perhaps even Mac browsers and enabled most of the time it is a much riper target for hackers to take advantage of. Java is highly prone to viruses and an overwhelming percentage (off hand about 80%) of the virus infected computers I have cleaned had most of their viruses located in the Java directories. So this "idiot" is doing a good job protecting the common person's computer from being hijacked by some jerk to send more junk mail to you. You're welcome.

See http://www.java.com/en/download/help/cache_virus.xml ?

[greenknight]

I can't see any merit in the "unusable minimalism" thesis, either. Firefox is neither unusable nor minimalist.

I did have a Java Trojan once, that managed to copy itself to another directory and become active. That was several Java updates ago, may be less likely now, but the idea that you can't get a virus through Java is not correct. Finding something in the Java cache doesn't necessarily mean you have an active virus, but they have been known to enter that way.

[VanillaMozilla]

Right. Early versions of Java are vulnerable. The OP may not know that. Instead he is confused about the cache issue. Let's hope he doesn't make the same mistake about the Firefox cache, which can also have viruses.

[burog25c]

dear OP:
how do you use that monstrosity of a tool bar?? and why have so much wasted space? on one tool bar i have access to back, forward, reload, stop, home, print, print preview, new tab, sage, thumbs, report broken website, flashblock, mouse gestures, IE view, closed tabs, and restart firefox... the other half of that tool bar is taken up with the search bar. most of the stuff you have on your bar is stuff that is easily accessible through menus, or stuff the AVERAGE user has very little need for on a regular basis. good lord, i know my better half would say mine is too cluttered with stuff as is, and she manages to do all her surfing with just the standard buttons that come with a typical install.. some of which she barely ever uses, not to mention the fact she very rarely access anything in any menu other than her bookmarks.

[greenknight]

Right. Early versions of Java are vulnerable. The OP may not know that. Instead he is confused about the cache issue. Let's hope he doesn't make the same mistake about the Firefox cache, which can also have viruses.

The OP is confused, no doubt about that.

Some of the other posters in this thread, though, sounded like they thought Java could never be a security risk. If you have an old version it can be. As it says in the article you linked to, you should get old, vulnerable versions off your computer and install an updated version.

[JAB Creations]

If the developers don't like bloat get rid of everything except for the file menu. Who needs a GUI to access features? Hell why don't we just get rid of all the features!

The OP is not confused, the OP has gone to many different sites then others.

[BenBasson]

If the developers don't like bloat get rid of everything except for the file menu. Who needs a GUI to access features? Hell why don't we just get rid of all the features! :-)

That's not a convincing argument for throwing in lots of extra crap.

[JAB Creations]

Feel free to get some program that will automatically crawl 10,000 websites while you have Java enabled using Firefox and see if your computer remains virus free after that.

If the developers don't like bloat get rid of everything except for the file menu. Who needs a GUI to access features? Hell why don't we just get rid of all the features!

That's not a convincing argument for throwing in lots of extra crap.

Then...

1.) Justify features that will not be used by the non-savvy.
2.) Justify forcing developer's personal unusably minimalistic default GUI on the non-savvy.
3.) Justify why a GUI that suits only developers and that only developers will know how to change overrides a non-savvy user's ability to make full use of Firefox with GUI settings that a developer could easily remove.

This forum bleeds of bias. Like, if you went to hell and it was full of blood, and that blood was on fire, and it was raining blood, then maybe THAT would be enough blood.

My point is that the GUI does not give easily accessible and instant access to half of the useful features in Firefox. For example I just needed to bring back up a tab I closed. What three things did I click on?

Developers know how to add, edit, remove, and otherwise modify the toolbars. The toolbar GUI should be set for non-savvy users by default as developers could always slim it down. By suggesting the GUI should be [b]YOUR[b] way by default is a slap in the face of every non-savvy user everywhere. It also shows how lazy developers are if they can't spend a minute to customize their toolbars as they have more reason to do so if the browser was setup for a much greater market share in the first place!

This thread simply shows that the developers have no clue how non-savvy users interact with their computer. It shows that their perception is that the user is on their own and that it is always up to them to figure things out. Out of a hundred people at the mall, a book store, a regular non-computer related job, out all those places how many people do any of you developers actually think will roll over and die to figure out everything out on their own?

People can call me names, hate me, or do whatever. Such people however have obvious personal preferences overriding what is best for people around the world at large. Such people have no sense of diplomacy and think about only themselves.

And btw this "crap" was made by a developer someplace. Additionally the added padding comes with Firefox's 2.0 theme. Come out of the cellars for a little while, get some fresh air, and think like a noob. Firefox should not be limited to only developers.

[BenBasson]

1.) Justify features that will not be used by the non-savvy.

No. You're the one that has to justify extras, since you're asking people to do extra work on your behalf.

2.) Justify forcing developer's personal unusably minimalistic default GUI on the non-savvy.

You clearly don't understand the needs of (as you call them) "non-savvy" users. I still fail to see your justification for changing anything.

3.) Justify why a GUI that suits only developers and that only developers will know how to change overrides a non-savvy user's ability to make full use of Firefox with GUI settings that a developer could easily remove.

The point is that "non-savvy" users don't want options and don't want to change or customise lots of things. They want easy access to common functions, which is precisely what they're given. I'm starting to suspect that you're trolling, given that even Opera developers now understand this concept better than you.

Here's a hint: jamming the toolbars full of icons is not the way to make applications more usable. If you think it is, you're wrong. End of story.

By suggesting the GUI should be [b]YOUR[b] way by default is a slap in the face of every non-savvy user everywhere.

Ultimately, whatever decision is made, it's still somebody's way. The fact that it isn't your way seems to be the real problem here.

People can call me names, hate me, or do whatever. Such people however have obvious personal preferences overriding what is best for people around the world at large. Such people have no sense of diplomacy and think about only themselves.

You're a prime example of this.

[old LoudNoise]

This forum bleeds of bias. Like, if you went to hell and it was full of blood, and that blood was on fire, and it was raining blood, then maybe THAT would be enough blood.

err, THIS is a firefox forum.

[VanillaMozilla]

Hey, JAB, love your toolbars. Don't listen to them. They're just users. I love the way the toolbar just extends as far as you want it. You can put just an unlimited number of icons there.

Mine is something like that. I think you can make it even better, though. I'll see if I can describe the buttons, so maybe you can see what I mean. I have a W, an M, a Nike swoop, sort of a blob, a brown puddle, a green swirl, the letters 'A' through 'Z', a mouse, and so on. Mostly I just grabbed ikons from the bookmarks, so I've practically got a little Google here. It's great! I don't have to search for anything! Then I found ways to make some of them active. It took a long time, but it was worth it. Here's one that I think does a backup of the computer, using local Java code. Neat. I had already used up the disk kind of ikons, so I found this smudge that reminds me of road kill -- I have this little mnemonic -- you know, my disk, road kill.

At first I ran into a couple of problems. The bar got so long that I forgot that ikons were hidden back there, and I had trouble finding them, even with scrolling. Then I began to forget what the **** some of them meant -- especially the old ones that had been there a few months -- they just sort of accumulated, you know. Just what the heck <i>does</i> three red balls over something that looks like a frog mean, if you know what I mean? And I have one here that says "BM", for bookmarks -- or is it benchmark data? No, I think the benchmark data must be that thing that looks a little like a footstool -- it's either a bench or a foot stool -- for the shoe store, you know. Anyway, I finally solved that by just printing them out, and just <i>writing</i> what each ikon meant with a pen. On paper. Then I have a couple of those hanging by the monitor. Well, sometimes I had to use a pencil because I wasn't so sure. It's a good thing there isn't any other user. I'd hate to think what would happen if I had to figure out someone else's ikons, if you get my drift.

See, here's where I think you're missing a good thing. To solve the first problem I found a way to stack rows of toolbars. So now when I run out of space it's easy just to add a couple of rows. Come to think of it, to tell you the truth, it's kind of good in a way that my old computer is starting to give a few problems. Now I can get one with a bigger monitor. I kinda need it because on that old monitor the buttons are starting to take up a lot of room. I tried making the ikons smaller but I couldn't see them. I am so glad this is personalized.

[Strephon Alkhalikoi]

As someone said already JAB, this IS a Firefox forum. Of course it's going to be biased! So, your comment that this forum bleeds of bias is perhaps answered better by one word than what I just said: DUH!

What you define as usable someone else may define as annoying. Your point is lost, because everybody's definition of usability is different. Perhaps you should take a nice quick look at my final post on page three, and absorb the images seen there, because MY definition of usability is VERY different from yours.

In regards to your little example, this feature is not something a non-savvy user truly needs. They will simply type the address into the bar again and surf to that page. Problem solved, at the cost of an enter button. That's called "understanding how the average user thinks". Again, Mozilla Corporation believes that the users of Firefox are intelligent people, quite able to figure out how to find features within the browser and determine for themselves whether those features are useful TO THEM. Really, what part of the preceding do you NOT understand?

You have plainly shown that you have no clue as to the intelligence of the people using Firefox. I understand how the average user interacts with their computer, because my entire family ARE the average user. I'm not, and I don't pretend to be. But since THEIR interface in the browser is the default interface (with everything on one bar) and THEY don't have any problems using the browser, your statements that the developers have no idea how non-savvy users interact with the computer are demonstrably false.

I don't hate you, and I don't have to call you names, because you're doing a damn good job all by your lonesome in looking like a horse's a**. If I didn't have any diplomacy, I wouldn't have happy customers that come back to see me when it comes to fixing their computers. But, I've used up all my diplomacy in regards to you. Bottom line here. Since it's obvious that you think you can do better than the developers, it's time to put up or shut up. Either get the source code and make Firefox the way you want it so you can distribute it to the average people who I know are more intelligent than you give them credit for, or get the hell out of Dodge.

[Sudhakar2k]

I agree in portion with JAB only that there should be more buttons available for firefox by default. But i want to stress that the amount need truly is minimal. I think a button for a new tab, and a new window, to print are the only ones that are would be useful to "non-savy" users. Like Chris i would also like to see split toolbars for the address & search. Maybe the best future solution (maybe we'll see it in Firefox 3.0) is to give the user a few simple, non confusing options to customize firefox on setup. And by a few i really mean few as not to overcomplicate the installation process for most people.

[Thumper]

Maybe the best future solution (maybe we'll see it in Firefox 3.0) is to give the user a few simple, non confusing options to customize firefox on setup.

No. This is the worst possible solution. Fortunately the UI peers have enough experience to know not to do such a thing.

- Chris

[casey1992]

I think "Print" is a prime example of a button that's unnecessary. As far as I know, "Print" has been in the File menu of just about everything since Mac System 1 in 1984.