Firefox's unusable minimalism problem.

Discussion of general topics about Mozilla Firefox
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BenBasson
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Post by BenBasson »

be wrote:The "open pages in a new tab" option also needs to be on by default. It is not in 1.5 (not sure about the default in 2.0).

You could have saved yourself two replies and probably four paragraphs by finding out that it already is enabled by default in Firefox 2.0.
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be
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Post by be »

Cusser wrote:
be wrote:The "open pages in a new tab" option also needs to be on by default. It is not in 1.5 (not sure about the default in 2.0).

You could have saved yourself two replies and probably four paragraphs by finding out that it already is enabled by default in Firefox 2.0.


Excellent. Like I said, I didn't try it yet. One wonders why it took them this long to do that. I'm not stingy on paragraphs, so that's fine. Is the New Tab button there? I suppose I should try it out.
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be
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Post by be »

No New Tab button by default. Bummer!
More RSI on Firefox installs this year.

Oh well, at least the public gets links opening in new tabs by default now. Finally. Maybe some common sense will reach those in charge of the Firefox interface in 2008 or so.
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Post by Khaine »

JAB Creations wrote:
My Left Hand wrote:just wished you'd stop posting your opinion as fact.


Do they have Java disabled to block viruses?


Your an idiot. Java is run in a sandbox, unless you can find a vulnerability and craft an exploit to take advantage of it you can't get a virus from Java. And Javascript is different from Java.

So why should we listen to your op-ed if you don't know what your talking about?
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Post by VanillaMozilla »

There's an element of truth in this. Read the previous page. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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irs009
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Post by irs009 »

Your screen shot made me chuckle. Your main complaint is a 'minimalism' approach used in Fx, then you leave 70% of a bar empty, causing you to use a third bar to accomplish your goal. He*l, I accomplish everything you do and much much more on two bars. You're not doing a very good job for your customers.
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Strephon Alkhalikoi
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Post by Strephon Alkhalikoi »

*chuckles*

I manage to do everything on one bar. In fact I set up my parent's computer with Firefox, and used the same TRULY minimal approach I use...

Image

I changed the theme to Fusion Alternative 2, but otherwise, the layout has not changed at all. My parents have not complained about the lack of buttons, and neither has my brother-in-law, who uses the computer more than they do.
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Frank Lion
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Post by Frank Lion »

Strephon Alkhalikoi wrote:*chuckles*

I manage to do everything on one bar...

Couple of ideas for you. Try the Resize Searchbar extension, which you can you to lengthen/shorten either the searchbar or urlbar, as required.

The other is the Compact Menu extension by Chris Neale, which will reduce all those menu items in your shot, down to a single button. I think some other guy has made versions of this one, as well.
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Strephon Alkhalikoi
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Post by Strephon Alkhalikoi »

To be honest, I never heard of either of those extensions. The Compact Menu extension is one that I will definitely try out because admittedly, I like a rather large address bar, and the menus DO take up a lot of space. The reason for the shot though was to emphasize the fact that despite the OP's whining to the contrary, Firefox's "minimalism" is actually quite usable.

Thank you for your ideas Frank. They are appreciated.

EDIT: I had to manually bump the max version of the Compact Menu extension in order for it to work in 2.0RC1, but it does work perfectly, as you can see below.

Image
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Post by VanillaMozilla »

That's actually a very nice way to do it. The menu isn't used that often, and the default buttons are bigger than they need to be anyway. On the other hand, the <F11> key does essentially the same thing "right out of the box".

Minimalism is the way to go here: less is more.
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Post by JAB Creations »

Khaine wrote:
JAB Creations wrote:
My Left Hand wrote:just wished you'd stop posting your opinion as fact.


Do they have Java disabled to block viruses?


Your an idiot. Java is run in a sandbox, unless you can find a vulnerability and craft an exploit to take advantage of it you can't get a virus from Java. And JavaScript is different from Java.

So why should we listen to your op-ed if you don't know what your talking about?


I find it odd that the only viruses I have had on my computer since using Firefox were all located in the Java folder and came up by three different scanners as trojans yet there were no viruses elsewhere on my computer.

Since Java is implemented in IE, Gecko browsers, Opera, and perhaps even Mac browsers and enabled most of the time it is a much riper target for hackers to take advantage of. Java is highly prone to viruses and an overwhelming percentage (off hand about 80%) of the virus infected computers I have cleaned had most of their viruses located in the Java directories. So this "idiot" is doing a good job protecting the common person's computer from being hijacked by some jerk to send more junk mail to you. You're welcome.

In another reply Firefox's button width has been increased in 2.0 versus 1.5. I'm not sure how large the large icons are in comparison between 1.5 and 2.0 but there is too much padding for the large buttons in the 2.0 theme.

The Compact Menu extension's usefulness for the common person in the above post is overshadowed by the lack of instant and easy access to the features as this thread is posted around.

I do think that (besides IE's bookmarks being called "favorites" that Firefox's GUI was a copy of IE's GUI (before it got f-tarded in 7.0).
Here to mostly fix the browser's broken GUI. I maintain the Fixed Firefox website to share the things I've confirmed work.
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JAB Creations
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Post by JAB Creations »

"Man I'm thirsty, bartender, I'll have a large 90 ounce drink please."

"Here you go."

"What's this?"

"It's our new 3 ounce Grand."

"I wanted a large drink!"

"Grand means large. Think of it as less is more. The cups look nicer today then they did yesterday anyway"

"Yesterday's cup filled me, this won't "

"But it's Grand! It will do the job!"

"So you're saying when I come to sit and relax after my frustrating day at work I have to order 60 of your drinks to get the same amount of the drink you gave me yesterday?"

"Well yes, it's a great idea."

"No, you think it's a great idea. I didn't come here to learn your art, I just want to do what I want to do and move on with my life. If I can't get something simple in regards what I need without having to figure all of this out then I'll take my business elsewhere!"

Less is more is like saying hidden features a common person without a tech savvy person around to help them will be used because they will come home from work and want to figure out how to make it work.

Let's make it work to begin with. If you want less is more then you know how to slim it down after you install it. Minimalism is the way to go if it's usable minimalism, not this unusable minimalism.

The padding bloat on the large icons is bloat, it's not usably minimal it's bloat.

Having features like the bookmarks and history icons up there represent VERY USEFUL features that the common person may find easy, quick to use, and intuitive to learn. Otherwise text menus are just more junk with a bunch of "computer stuff" that they don't know about unless someone sits them down and explains it.

So unless the unusable minimalists want to shell out the cash or go on a campaign to personally teach every single human being on earth one by one who does not know any tech savvy people how to use all those awesome features in Firefox then I suggest we give them those nice shinny buttons next to the ones they are already familar with as their position constitutes safety via not only their placement but appearance as friendly icons.

I have yet to hear anything critically constructive against my position in regards to the GUI interface on behalf of the common person who does not know any tech savvy people willing to help them out.
Here to mostly fix the browser's broken GUI. I maintain the Fixed Firefox website to share the things I've confirmed work.
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Frank Lion
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Post by Frank Lion »

JAB Creations wrote:The Compact Menu extension's usefulness for the common person in the above post is overshadowed by the lack of instant and easy access to the features as this thread is posted around.

Says you. For a start, a damn sight less of the patronising 'common person' stuff from you, clear? Secondly, I'm busier than you will ever be, so if Compact Menu was not time effective, then I wouldn't have wasted time updating it, would I?

Frank Lion wrote:Compact Menu for Firefox 2 and below. Created by Chris Neale. New graphics and update by me. All menu items into one button, etc, etc...

From this :

Image

To this :

Image


Image

...or, you can just have the word, 'Menu', if you prefer.

Uninstall/Disable other versions of Compact Menu first. Will send to Addons, er, sometime.


http://rapidshare.de/files/34858553/Com ... L.xpi.html
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Post by Thumper »

I have yet to hear anything critically constructive against my position in regards to the GUI interface on behalf of the common person who does not know any tech savvy people willing to help them out.


I've yet to hear anything from you which holds up to scrunity from people who know what they're talking about. Your latest masterpiece about virus scanner positives in a cache folder being the same thing as successful exploits makes it pretty clear that you're basically self-taught, which makes it almost impossible to argue with you because of your solipsism. You made broad, sweeping and nonsensical claims, didn't bother researching them, and don't appear to be open to commentary which doesn't agree with you. You're wasting people's time.

- Chris
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Strephon Alkhalikoi
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Post by Strephon Alkhalikoi »

JAB, I find it humorous that when the issue of Firefox's "minimalism" is addressed by the people here, you have no reply except to say that the usefulness of the Compact Menu extension is overshadowed by the lack of instant and easy access to the features.

The features that appear in the menus are the features that the average user would in fact need on the browser. MoCo works from the lowest common denominator, but assumes that its customers are reasonably intelligent beings. You sir seem to think your customers are idiots, as you feel you have to DUMB DOWN THE INTERFACE for their benefit.

What is minimalism? According to Answers.com, minimalism has three definitions. Only the second one interests me for this discussion. Minimalism is defined as "use of the fewest and barest essentials or elements, as in the arts, literature, or design." Your design as shown below does not qualify for minimalist, because it doesn't use the "fewest and barest essentials".

Let's compare.

Here's yours.
Image

Here's mine.
Image

I really don't see how yours adheres to the definition of minimalism. You have mentioned that you speak of "unusable minimalism", or a minimalism that is not fit for use. Therein lies the problem. I consider your setup to be neither usable nor minimalist, and therefore I'm not seeing the point here. The average Firefox user has tooltips for the buttons, and menus for access to commonly used features. Features that an advanced user may want to access but an average user may not bother with are not as easily seen, likely put away in the options. Tech savvy users have about:config to use if they want to further customize the browser, OR they can tinker with the underlying code themselves.

My parents, my brother-in-law, my roommate, and my brother all have no problem with Firefox. None of them are anywhere near tech savvy like myself. Yet all of them seem to be able to use the browser without any problems. Why is that? Because only the essential features are readily available at the surface level of the browser, in keeping with the minimalist approach of Firefox.

Mind you, I haven't touched on the subject of extensions, except for the Compact Menu extension, which I happen to quite like for the reasons noted above. The entire thing that is annoying people here is that you keep on trying to pass off your setup as the only logical setup, and are failing to see that other people out there who are as well informed as you are do not see it your way. You already know I don't see it your way, as my setup in this post quite blatantly shows.

At this point, anything else I would say here would be echoing what others have said, though I'd not be nearly as nice about it.
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