Anyone 'losing faith'?

Discussion of general topics about Mozilla Firefox
Locked
User avatar
grayrest
Posts: 468
Joined: November 5th, 2002, 8:49 am
Location: Tribus!
Contact:

Post by grayrest »

Since this seems to be the thread of choice for getting feedback about the project, I have a few questions:

1. Is there any way for insignificant contributors to work on this project or do you just want major contributors?

At first m/b and m/t were accepting no patches at all. I have heard that this is no longer true by I don't know how to go about contributing.

2. Would it be possible to list ideas that you'd like to explore as helpwanted? Are the post-1.0 features (specifically Page Info and Help) consiered future/helpwanted?

There are 3 bugs marked as helpwanted. One is likely to be addressed in your extension update changes, One is a year old crash for japanese (?) autocomplete, one is for BeOS. This won't help you with getting 1.0 out the door directly, but it does give other people an entry point so that you might not be coding towards 2.x by yourself. I'm willing to code whatever as long as it's not time critical and I can get semi-regular feedback (weekly, bi-weekly) to limit pointless coding.

3. If I have specific, reasoned UI requests where do I make them? How formal does it have to be, discussion of expected benefits/problems or stuff like User Scenarios and other UE-type stuff? Would patches affect consideration one way or another?

I don't plan on arguing for my favorite features, I just build an extension. Saves my time and yours.

In short, I'd like to help but really don't have the time to regularly commit. If you could provide some advice on how I could help, I'd appreciate it.
User avatar
grayrest
Posts: 468
Joined: November 5th, 2002, 8:49 am
Location: Tribus!
Contact:

Post by grayrest »

To the people who think ben working on this project himself is risky:

It sounds more risky than it is. There is a very large number of people who work on the rendering engine itself, the framework that makes the browser go and whatnot. Thus the problems with caching, page rendering, etc. won't happen because ben isn't developing that part of the browser. Ben is essentially building an interface on top of a rendering engine. The quality of Firefox over the suite browser is a testament to his skill both as a programmer and as a usability engineer.

If ben were to immediately leave the project, it would be a major loss but not an irrecoverable one. Firebird is a high-enough profile open source project that someone would pick up the pieces and builds would continue to be produced, even if that meant only fixing the breaks caused by updates to gecko. Development would likely slow and the browser would stagnate, much like it did last year between december and february before ben picked up development. It's the open source advantage.
Last edited by grayrest on February 12th, 2004, 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
emerald
Posts: 44
Joined: February 2nd, 2004, 6:37 am

Post by emerald »

SeaFox wrote:New download manager:
If I read the idea behind Firefox correctly, it seems the development of a fast, accurate (to standards) web broswer with a small file/system resource footprint is the goal. So I have trouble understanding why the new download manager is part of the build and not an extension to add if wished. The extension system is a powerful idea. The user only takes the features they need, not more. Leaving the bytes and processor cycles to other tasks. Plus the extensions can be updated independantly of the browser, not effecting it's own development schedule if need be. The stuff Firefox can do with the right extensions needs to be evangalized more. People complain openly about unneeded features in MS Word, that's a hint they'll listen to this.


Among other things, a web browser is defined as a piece of software that can handle HTTP and HTTPS processes. Many downloads on the Web are done through HTTP(S). Given that fact, it makes sense to have a download manager since HTTP(S) downloads are part of the standardized Web experience.

By contrast, support for FTP in a Web browser makes no sense because FTP is a part of the Internet but not the Web.

Part of our disagreement as a community stems from the fact that we have not derived a definition of a Web browser. We all assume that we know what a Web browser is when, in fact, based on the discussions in these fora, it is clear that we do not have a definition of a Web browser. Put another way, our greediness for features has blinded us to the real purpose and function of a Web browser.
User avatar
grayrest
Posts: 468
Joined: November 5th, 2002, 8:49 am
Location: Tribus!
Contact:

Post by grayrest »

emerald wrote:By contrast, support for FTP in a Web browser makes no sense because FTP is a part of the Internet but not the Web.


The distinction is reasonable if you're a geek/engineer and completely arbitrary and incomprehensible to Firefox's target audience. The user simply wants to "download a file" so that they can get on with their business. Why would they possibly care about the underlying protocol or whether it's on the web or just the Internet? Browsers are for connecting to the "Internet". Other apps that use the net but aren't the web are perceived totally differently e.g. IM is (A)IM and its association with the Internet isn't always made unless you ask them to explain it. Same with VoIP and (occasionally) file sharing. Email is also usually done over the web, so that just reinforces the idea that the Internet is whatever you can reach through your browser.
User avatar
esavior
Posts: 1211
Joined: July 29th, 2003, 1:57 pm
Contact:

Post by esavior »

Is this what your looking for grayrest?
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/review.html
Mindjunk
I didn't hear no bell...
TD
Posts: 79
Joined: December 3rd, 2002, 7:47 pm
Location: New Zealand

Post by TD »

Wow, pages upon pages of arm chair developers, UI experts and project managers making bold statements with little to no evidence.

Here's my 2 cents: How about you guys leave the poor Firefox team alone? 0.8 has a ton of new features and bug fixes and every one of them has improved the browser. So what that Firefox only has a couple of people making the decisions? I think they've proved that they can make the right ones.
User avatar
Christopher
Posts: 249
Joined: April 14th, 2003, 10:45 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Re: delegate the OS X version!

Post by Christopher »

DrEasy wrote:I can totally relate to Ben's confessed difficulty in delegating. I am also excited by his overt ambition to take on M$ in a new browser war!


- speaking of delegating, I think the one task that should be least painful for Ben to delegate would be to find somebody in charge of the OS X version. Based on what I've been reading in the forums so far (and not my own experience, I'm only using the Windows version), the OS X version seems to be lagging somewhat in terms of quality. I think Ben should focus on fighting against IE on Windows and providing a decent browser for Linux users, not worrying about Safari and Camino. If FireFox absolutely has to have its place in the Mac world, let it be someone else's problem.


What are you talking about? Don't speak if you have not tried it!
I find it more mature in many ways. Installation. Drag and drop. That's it. To name one thing.
The things that lacks on the OS X version is some system UI specific features in Fx.
And the progress on fixing this is going fast.
Last edited by Christopher on February 12th, 2004, 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
sgbouwhu
Posts: 130
Joined: May 4th, 2003, 4:35 am
Location: Netherlands

Post by sgbouwhu »

TD wrote:Wow, pages upon pages of arm chair developers, UI experts and project managers making bold statements with little to no evidence.

Here's my 2 cents: How about you guys leave the poor Firefox team alone? 0.8 has a ton of new features and bug fixes and every one of them has improved the browser. So what that Firefox only has a couple of people making the decisions? I think they've proved that they can make the right ones.
How about you take the time to read the thread a bit more carefully? Talk about "bold statements with little or no evidence".
User avatar
Spewey
Folder@Home
Posts: 5799
Joined: January 25th, 2003, 2:06 pm
Location: St. Paul, Minnes°ta

Post by Spewey »

grayrest, this is going to work.
Either they swallow us up whole or we show them a thing or two about ones and zeroes.
Mozilla's future involves a dedicated few who can see through to the end without worrying too much about today's [perceived] technological constraints or the incessant clamor of the washed masses.

______________
Everyone is always either on the bus or off the bus.
Micha the not so Old
Posts: 0
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 5:00 pm

Post by Micha the not so Old »

Look what happened when we took the Firebird name. A bunch of people we didn't even know existed came and tried to bust us up. Did they lose faith, no way.

OK so there were no discussions, but perhaps if there had, some cat in some bag may have been let out. We now have a name that will stick. Users may come and go, but overall, numbers of Mozilla / Firefox users will increase as people become disillusioned with other browsers. Some may even be old Mozilla / Firefox users.
iamnotniles
Posts: 1293
Joined: December 22nd, 2002, 5:32 am
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Post by iamnotniles »

mmhmm, can't be bothered to read all this so I'm just going to say what I want to say, flame me if you want.

I really don't have any problems with these things. Ben has said over and over that it's not a community project. I'd also like to say thanks to all the work he's put into FX and I think he's done a good job.

Now let's think about the bugs I've posted,
Put a print button on the toolbar - one, when I had my keyboard disconnected and therefore couldn't press Ctrl + P I went looking on the toolbar, IE has one, word has one and, unless I'm mistaken, SeaMonkey has one. I therefore thought that most people (as I had) would expect there to be a print button on there.

Next, cookie whitelisting should use "www." as a wildcard, now this is going by the IE system where it adds the main domain to the list. Now someone in the bug I filed suggested that there should be a prompt the first time which I then decided was a good idea and currently believe should be implemented so I'm not a "I want this - do it" I'm willing to listen to sensible suggestions.

Finally (and although I didn't do the bugs it was my idea) I said that the links in the program to things such as themes should point to mozilla.org/redir and then bounce you onto the right link, this was due to three things
- The time when texturiser broke, what if they suddenly shut down? All the builds before the "new site" was made would be broken.
- MS do the same with theirs so it's not something odd
- It could lead to the centralisation of mozilla websites which I still believe should happen. I'm still, as an experienced computer user, scared of goinf around sites, I like everything to be in the same place.

Think of it this way, you go to Macy's and ask for a bag, then then send you along to some tiny shop round the corner you've never heard of that looks a bit grotty (and yes that's aimed at MozDev, no offence but it's true IMO) to get it instead of doing it themselves. That's how I think of it.

Anyhow I don't moan as I know it's unfinshed and it's getting there, once it's all working properly and at 1.0 then we can moan, otherwise, to use the open-source cliche, if it's broke, make a patch.
Last edited by iamnotniles on February 13th, 2004, 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
inspector71
Posts: 139
Joined: August 6th, 2003, 8:59 pm

Post by inspector71 »

TD wrote:Wow, pages upon pages of arm chair developers, UI experts and project managers making bold statements with little to no evidence.

Here's my 2 cents: How about you guys leave the poor Firefox team alone? 0.8 has a ton of new features and bug fixes and every one of them has improved the browser. So what that Firefox only has a couple of people making the decisions? I think they've proved that they can make the right ones.


Since you have the right to express your two cents, why not respect the right of others to do the same?

Btw, where is your reasoned evidence to support your opinion?
inspector71
Posts: 139
Joined: August 6th, 2003, 8:59 pm

Post by inspector71 »

How many times does a keyboard become disconnected? Phew it's hard enough writing software for standard siutations let alone expecting some button to be on a toolbar to help you with some obscure situation.

Right click the toolbar Hymagumba and drag the print icon on your toolbar yourself.
iamnotniles
Posts: 1293
Joined: December 22nd, 2002, 5:32 am
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Post by iamnotniles »

mozBirdLuva wrote:How many times does a keyboard become disconnected? Phew it's hard enough writing software for standard siutations let alone expecting some button to be on a toolbar to help you with some obscure situation.

Right click the toolbar Hymagumba and drag the print icon on your toolbar yourself.


whenever I'm cleaning it.

What I mean is a lot of people just use the buttons on the toolbar, I'm more of a menu person now but I used to ONLY use the toolbar. I've already plonked it there, it's other "end-users" (which, lets be honest, is a euphanism for moron) I'm thinking about here, someone else I converted asked where was the print button if you have to know which renforced my idea. A standard situation for him would be to press the big print button, not use the menus/keyboard like I do.

I'm actually thining of other users here, in Word at school I removed the print button because I kept pressing it by accident.
User avatar
grayrest
Posts: 468
Joined: November 5th, 2002, 8:49 am
Location: Tribus!
Contact:

Post by grayrest »

esavior wrote:Is this what your looking for grayrest?
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/review.html


Thanks for the link. I missed that announcement, but no, that doesn't completely answer any of my questions.
Locked