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Alt+S occupied in 2.0b1

Discussion of features in Mozilla Firefox
old zeniko
 
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Post Posted October 19th, 2006, 2:15 pm

rickmans wrote:Arguments to keep it the old-fashioned way are as valid as changing them with the only difference there were not (that many) users that would like to change the original behaviour (at least I did not found that many entries in bugzilla)

While convenient to you, the "old-fashioned way" is flat-out broken for a different group of keyboard users whereas the new behavior is just inconvenient. "Broken" vs "inconvenient" isn't really what I'd call "as valid".

rickmans wrote:You offered a default that is different from the last view years and different from most browsers.

Please don't say "most browsers" when you actually mean "Internet Explorer". Otherwise let me repeat: most browsers have their own solution (from the top of my mind: Ctrl, Ctrl+release, Shift+Esc, Alt -- and now Alt+Shift/Ctrl+Shift/Ctrl [depending on the OS]). Even when restricted to Windows, you'll still get Alt and Shift+Esc (you might find this thread interesting as for why Opera doesn't use Alt).

rickmans wrote:Depending on an extension is like saying: "we know it sucks, but probably someone else will also think it sucks and he will fix it".

Nobody depends on an extension but those wishing the good ol' days back, so it's rather like saying "we know not everybody will be happy and thus we'll allow for a pretty simple fix".

rickmans wrote:As you already said in this thread: you probably have got some statistics to share in order to prove your point. ;).

I didn't mean to make any comparison by number. I rather wanted to point out that the choice between breaking the browser for one group and making it slightly less convenient for another shouldn't really be too difficult to make.

rickmans wrote:Do you really want to have a lot of forum users which can not post by default in the way they are doing for the last 5 years (with alt+s).

Please specify "a lot of" without just using plain old browser statistics -- these simply don't tell how many of those users have actually been using Alt+S at all.

rickmans wrote:Why not not fixing that bug and wait for an extension for that option? ;).

Because the fix had to be at the very core of Firefox which is highly non-trivial to affect by extensions (if possible at all). Now an extension can make a difference, before it simply couldn't...

rickmans

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Post Posted October 19th, 2006, 9:30 pm

zeniko wrote:
rickmans wrote:Do you really want to have a lot of forum users which can not post by default in the way they are doing for the last 5 years (with alt+s).

Please specify "a lot of" without just using plain old browser statistics -- these simply don't tell how many of those users have actually been using Alt+S at all.
"I didn't mean to make any comparison by number. I rather wanted to point out that the choice between breaking the browser for one group and making it slightly less convenient for another shouldn't really be too difficult to make." Please If you make comparisons with groups of people and you are not quantifiing them, why should I? It seems to be you think you argument has more value added since it is your argument and you know that it is true. However when someone asks you for details about this argument some rahter peculiar answer is given. Therefore is my suggestion, either we both quantify our answers, or we do not and accept that the arguments we are using are both true, since nobody has any advantage of not telling the truth.
zeniko wrote:
rickmans wrote:Why not not fixing that bug and wait for an extension for that option? ;).

Because the fix had to be at the very core of Firefox which is highly non-trivial to affect by extensions (if possible at all). Now an extension can make a difference, before it simply couldn't...
You are still telling me "we had to", "we must". Were there guns pointing at you for fixing it?

It is good that it now can be optional, but I think it is a bit arrogant that ff wants to change the standaard of IE and FF for the last years. Of course you could try it and maybe you will succeed, on the other switching from IE to FF will have now one extra limit.

rickmans

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Post Posted October 19th, 2006, 9:36 pm

Allthough I think that the arguments on the opera forum are more customer friendly than the arguments that you were using. I think if used their tone and perhaps their arguments, I was pleased with related answers instead of now. Now I just got the idea I am talking to a stubborn IE7 developer who decides he knows best what to do for the users. In the opera thread you will see that they also decide what the best is for the user, allthough the explain it why it is best for the user and you are currently not doing that in my opinion (or at least not clearly enough).

Perhaps is some extra attention in the release notes for the accesskeys not a bad idea, not everybody has the patience to find out how new functionality will work.

old zeniko
 
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Post Posted October 20th, 2006, 5:07 am

rickmans wrote:Please If you make comparisons with groups of people and you are not quantifiing them, why should I?

Of course you need not do so. It was just that you seemed to imply that the sheer number of users affected by this somehow made a difference. Never mind.

rickmans wrote:You are still telling me "we had to", "we must". Were there guns pointing at you for fixing it?

Obviously, they won't let me tell you about them. ;)

rickmans wrote:I think it is a bit arrogant that ff wants to change the standaard of IE and FF for the last years.

I'd rather call it "daring". :) OTOH as I've already repeated for numerous times: there was a design issue which partly broke accessibility for keyboard-only users. And fixing that issue simply wasn't possible without changing the content accesskey modifier.

rickmans wrote:the arguments on the opera forum are more customer friendly than the arguments that you were using.

Of course they have the advantage of never having supported Alt as a modifier in the first place, so there are no raging users wanting their "Alt+S" back...

rickmans wrote:Now I just got the idea I am talking to a stubborn IE7 developer who decides he knows best what to do for the users.

Would I still be arguing if I really thought I knew best? But since nobody else did neither, I at least wanted to improve the situation as far as possible by me. The nice thing about open source is that that's really possible. Feel free to share insights (or even code) - they won't go unnoticed. In fact I was asking for opinions about this change a few months ago - and the only feedback I got was that it might be a problem to communicate the change, but otherwise to go ahead...

rickmans wrote:In the opera thread you will see that they also decide what the best is for the user

Unfortunately it's a highly non-trivial thing to do since while I'm convinced that the current solution is overall better, it's subjectively worse for the "Alt+S" crowd. Now, what to tell you except that we're sorry but we had to bite the bullet and make this change and maybe point to the reasons for the change? Sure we could have waited another release - but fixing the accesskey issues haven't been much of a priority for the past 6 years, so why would they have suddenly become now?

rickmans wrote:Perhaps is some extra attention in the release notes for the accesskeys not a bad idea, not everybody has the patience to find out how new functionality will work.

That's what I'd have liked to have since Firefox 2.0 beta 2 where this change was included. Unfortunately my requests have not been granted, so far. I can't do more than filing appropriate bugs in this matter, either, I'm afraid.

rickmans

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Post Posted October 20th, 2006, 7:06 am

zeniko wrote:
rickmans wrote:Now I just got the idea I am talking to a stubborn IE7 developer who decides he knows best what to do for the users.

Would I still be arguing if I really thought I knew best? But since nobody else did neither, I at least wanted to improve the situation as far as possible by me. The nice thing about open source is that that's really possible. Feel free to share insights (or even code) - they won't go unnoticed. In fact I was asking for opinions about this change a few months ago - and the only feedback I got was that it might be a problem to communicate the change, but otherwise to go ahead...
Were did you ask for opinions? I was not a regular visitor until yesterday ;) but perhaps if it is appreciated that users give input (or if it is possible for users to give input) I would like to look at these things just for my own interest and because I would always like to know what the next steps are for my favourite browser (only this change is not really my favourite ;)).

old zeniko
 
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Post Posted October 20th, 2006, 7:30 am

rickmans wrote:Were did you ask for opinions?

Besides the bug itself and some other relevant bugs, I posted to the official Firefox development (post) and Mozilla platform (post) newsgroups and the Firefox Builds forum (post). You'll note the lack of replies...

Further places for discussion and decision making involve the Mozilla Wiki, IRC and the weekly status meetings at Mozilla headquarters.

Deacon
 
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Location: San Antonio, TX

Post Posted October 26th, 2006, 12:38 pm

stonedyak wrote:Yes, I found this change annoying too. You can either use Shift-Alt+S to submit or you can change it back to how it was using about:config
Change:
ui.key.chromeAccess to 5
ui.key.contentAccess to 4

This will allow you to use Alt for webpage shortcuts and Shift-Alt for Firefox's menu shortcuts


Fantastic, sir! Thank you so much! :D
Eric (the Deacon remix)

tinfoil
 
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Post Posted October 30th, 2006, 6:15 pm

Here's an idea. FF2 defaults to the new format, but the first time a user hits ALT+S (as I am sure no small number of regular forum users are want to do), have a small dialogue box pop-up that says something to the affect that due to bug #xxxxx, we have changed your conventional ALT-S shortcut to [something]. Would you like to keep it this way or would you like to change it back to the old styl (unrecomended)

Or atleast make it something in the prefs. about:config has a metric arseload of things to sift through to find this, and I certainly didn't find it when I went through it.

ryan423

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Post Posted October 31st, 2006, 11:38 pm

I was also looking for this.
Does Jesus impact your life?

AZsteelman
 
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Joined: November 2nd, 2006, 4:36 pm

Post Posted November 2nd, 2006, 5:55 pm

Ok, as an everyday user and not a "techie" I have no idea how to make this change that is suggested. I'm very disappointed the ALT S doesn't work and it seems that the change won't be made back the way it was. Can someone spell out in detail how I can do the "work around". Thanks

ynotswim
 
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Location: San Francisco

Post Posted November 2nd, 2006, 9:19 pm

But I used Alt+S for Sage. Is there anyway I can override History?

Even better, how do I get rid of that History (and Bookmark) completely from the top menu? I never use them, and there is a Cltr+B for bookmark anyway.

Any idea? Thanks.
YNOT at the Movies: http://ynotmovies.blogspot.com

old zeniko
 
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Joined: December 31st, 1969, 5:00 pm

Post Posted November 3rd, 2006, 7:50 am

AZsteelman wrote:Can someone spell out in detail how I can do the "work around". Thanks

1. Get used to it. :)

If that work-around doesn't work for you, try the following steps:
1. Enter <kbd>about:config</kbd> into your address bar and hit Enter/Go
2. Filter for <kbd>contentAccess</kbd>
3. Double-click on the remaining list entry and enter 4 (instead of the default 5).

That's it.

ynotswim wrote:Is there anyway I can override History?

No, the History accesskey is only disabled when you hide the History menu (see below). Note that the proper fix for this issue would be Sage changing the hotkey, though, since they're supposed to rather use Ctrl+<key> instead of Alt+<key> for shortcuts (technically the latter should only apply for visible elements).

ynotswim wrote:how do I get rid of that History (and Bookmark) completely from the top menu?

Add the following lines to your userChrome.css:
Code: Select all
#main-menubar #go-menu,
#main-menubar #bookmarks-menu {
   display: none !important;
}

AZsteelman
 
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Joined: November 2nd, 2006, 4:36 pm

Post Posted November 4th, 2006, 8:40 am

zeniko wrote:
AZsteelman wrote:Can someone spell out in detail how I can do the "work around". Thanks

1. Get used to it. :)

If that work-around doesn't work for you, try the following steps:
1. Enter <kbd>about:config</kbd> into your address bar and hit Enter/Go
2. Filter for <kbd>contentAccess</kbd>
3. Double-click on the remaining list entry and enter 4 (instead of the default 5).


I made the changes...easy enough. Thanks...

ynotswim
 
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Location: San Francisco

Post Posted November 4th, 2006, 11:47 am

zeniko wrote:
ynotswim wrote:how do I get rid of that History (and Bookmark) completely from the top menu?

Add the following lines to your userChrome.css:
Code: Select all
#main-menubar #go-menu,
#main-menubar #bookmarks-menu {
   display: none !important;
}


Sweet. Thanks! Now after I get rid of the History and Bookmark from the top menu, Alt+S is back to open up Sage again! :) It fixes two things, although I am not sure if that's a bug actually.

I do agree that Sage should change the shortcut key from Alt+S to something else because it's an extension of Firefox so it should not conflict with Firefox. I opened a bug for sage.
YNOT at the Movies: http://ynotmovies.blogspot.com

galapogos

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Post Posted November 21st, 2006, 6:35 am

After changing the ui.key.chromeAccess and ui.key.contentAccess, Alt-S works, but Alt-C to clear download history doesn't work anymore. Does anyone know why?

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