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Ctrl-Q for exit?

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leoz

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 7:22 am

aarem wrote:it involves extra keystrokes! why are you against ctrl-q? it seems to me ctrl-q is the most convenient (and most common) way to quit an application. I can't understand why anyone would be against it, except for the fact that q and w are next to each other on the keyboard, but that is true about so many letters.....


I am against Ctrl-Q because it is much too easy to hit. Anything so destructive shouldn't be so easy. If you accidentally hit ctrl-W, you lost a window (and hitting ctrl-shit-z will reopen it if you have the latest TBE installed). If you accidentally hit Ctrl-Q, you lost all your open windows and tabs - which take a long time to recreate.

It's like having two buttons side-by-side. One that turns out the lights in the room and one that launches a nuclear missile. That doesn't sound like a bad idea to you?

And how often do you want to exit the application anyway? I close windows via ctrl-w all the time (as soon as I am finished with them). But I never close the whole application.

Stefan

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 7:35 am

leoz wrote:It's like having two buttons side-by-side. One that turns out the lights in the room and one that launches a nuclear missile. That doesn't sound like a bad idea to you?


That is a pretty good comparison to point at the probelm.
The same also applies fo the contextmenu for tabs, how can you have "Close tab" and "close all other tabs" next to each other? Totally insane as far as usability is concerned.

joha

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 8:44 am

two legged freak wrote:cant you press Alt+F4 instead? I do that always, didnt even know about ctrl+q :D

On linux when using Gnome desktop environment, Alt-Fx takes you to the desktop number x.
If you are not familiar with the concept of multiple desktops, on Windows you can try out a MS solution, Virtual Desktop Manager, that is available in Windows PowerToys. Anyway, you can see the concept with that. I don't know how well it works. Previously some applications got confused when using it. ;)
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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 9:49 am

aarem wrote:This would be very helpful and would definitely help, especially to Linux users. I don't agree with a previous poster's comment on ctrl-q being non-standard -- notepad is hardly an application of any value....


TEN applications listed, NONE of which use ctrl-Q, and you still don't agree that it's nonstandard on Windows? (Note that I explicitly said Windows.)

aarem wrote:Actually, the faction asking for the removal of file->exit feature can not be the same as those who asked for the removal of the ctrl-q feature. This is because these people probably used not key-bindings but the mouse and the "x" feature to exit. No chance of any accident because of the presence of ctrl-q for these folks, is there?


That 'faction' are mostly arguing it because it's an abhorrent decision from a useability point of view.

aarem wrote:In fact, I fail to understand the new campaign to remove file-> exit ---- close and quit are not next to each other, so how do they accidentally hit the other? Most likely they are confused with the word "Quit"...


Because it's at the bottom of the menu, where the traditional 'close this window' option is on Windows. I suggest if you wish to log a complaint that removing a nonstandard and destructive menu option personally inconveniences you that you do it on that thread.

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 12:38 pm

[quote="thumperward"][quote="aarem"]This would be very helpful and would definitely help, especially to Linux users. I don't agree with a previous poster's comment on ctrl-q being non-standard -- notepad is hardly an application of any value....[/quote]

TEN applications listed, NONE of which use ctrl-Q, and you still don't agree that it's nonstandard on Windows? (Note that I explicitly said Windows.)

Actually, the notion of ctrl-Q as an application-quitting option came from Windoze. Very few exclusively linux applications have it, unless they were ported from Windoze. Your "TEN applications" are not really the useful ones, are they? No one who uses a computer as better than a toy uses Notepad. As far as the others, I have not even heard of some of them!

[quote="aarem"]Actually, the faction asking for the removal of file->exit feature can not be the same as those who asked for the removal of the ctrl-q feature. This is because these people probably used not key-bindings but the mouse and the "x" feature to exit. No chance of any accident because of the presence of ctrl-q for these folks, is there?[/quote]

That 'faction' are mostly arguing it because it's an abhorrent decision from a useability point of view.

It is?? But all these other applications (acrobat, netscape, mozilla, word, openoffice, powerpoint, the entire office suite (I guess), and several others) all use it and they are that abhorrent?

[quote="aarem"]In fact, I fail to understand the new campaign to remove file-> exit ---- close and quit are not next to each other, so how do they accidentally hit the other? Most likely they are confused with the word "Quit"...[/quote]

Because it's at the bottom of the menu, where the traditional 'close this window' option is on Windows. I suggest if you wish to log a complaint that removing a nonstandard and destructive menu option personally inconveniences you that you do it on that thread.
- Chris[/quote]

First of all, it is not true in most applications! Certainly not the most common and useful ones, anyway. From my experience, most windoze users are not into keyboard bindings and in any case, the gui "x" users are not the same as the keybinding users (can't be).

Very Microsofty!! It does not "personally inconvenience" me greatly. I can always go back to Mozilla which today is standard across windoze and other OS's -- has the same interface. I use Phoenix because it is important to support the movement against bloat. Therefore, I think that this is against the grain of promoting standards. I think it is sillly that just because some people can not distinguish between "close" and "quit" , they would get rid of the head to cure their headache!! Of course, getting rid of this file->exit menu is extremely silly because it would mean eliminating a way of killing the application cleanly. You may be unaware, but closing thewindow by using that "x" does not necessarily kill the process but may actually create an illegal process. These things matter for optimization of CPU resources (for actual computing users) -- even you may find the hourglass tiresome after a while....power CPU users would definitely get out of phoenix then!!

daihardM3

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 1:11 pm

aarem wrote:it involves extra keystrokes! why are you against ctrl-q? it seems to me ctrl-q is the most convenient (and most common) way to quit an application. I can't understand why anyone would be against it, except for the fact that q and w are next to each other on the keyboard, but that is true about so many letters.....


I second aarem's opinion. I wasn't even aware of "ctrl + q" Now that I've used it for a few minutes, I already feel more comfortable doing "ctrl + q" than the "alt + F4" that I've been used to. I'd vote for the return of "ctrl + q".
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leoz

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 1:13 pm

daihardM3 wrote:
aarem wrote:it involves extra keystrokes! why are you against ctrl-q? it seems to me ctrl-q is the most convenient (and most common) way to quit an application. I can't understand why anyone would be against it, except for the fact that q and w are next to each other on the keyboard, but that is true about so many letters.....


I second aarem's opinion. I wasn't even aware of "ctrl + q" Now that I've used it for a few minutes, I already feel more comfortable doing "ctrl + q" than the "alt + F4" that I've been used to. I'd vote for the return of "ctrl + q".


I once again ask - how often do you actually want to use ctrl-q? If you have just one window that you want closed, why not hit ctrl-W? If you ever open multiple windows, will you really often want to close all of them at once?

daihardM3

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 1:39 pm

leoz wrote:I once again ask - how often do you actually want to use ctrl-q? If you have just one window that you want closed, why not hit ctrl-W? If you ever open multiple windows, will you really often want to close all of them at once?


I want 'ctrl + Q' for consistency. More than once have I hit 'ctrl + W' to close the current open tab, only to find the entire Phoenix closed as there's only one tab open. Assigning one shortcut two different tasks (closing a tab and closing the entire app in this case) doesn't seem to be a good idea to me. A better idea for me would be for 'ctrl + W' to close the current tab if there's more than one tab open, otherwise do nothing, and for 'ctrl + Q' to close the app itself. An added benefit would be that the 'ctrl + Q' behaviour would be consistent with other KDE applications.

Thumper

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 1:59 pm

aarem wrote:Actually, the notion of ctrl-Q as an application-quitting option came from Windoze.


That would be why it's in such common use, then...

Very few exclusively linux applications have it, unless they were ported from Windoze.


Very few Windows programs use it, even if they were ported from Linux (Gaim). So that makes very few altogether, doesn't it?

Your "TEN applications" are not really the useful ones, are they? No one who uses a computer as better than a toy uses Notepad. As far as the others, I have not even heard of some of them!


I find that insulting. Firstly, Notepad might not be Emacs but it's in extremely common use, and is perfectly good at what it;'s used for (simple text maniplution). Just because it isn't a £6000 CAD package doesn't mean it can be ignored.

The rest of my list:

WinRAR - extremely popular archive utility.
Winamp - extremely popular media player.
Getright - extremely popular download manager.
Sictus Prolog - probably the most widely-used Prolog app in Windows.
Explorer - need I go on?

Your ignorance is on par with your arrogance it seems.

aarem wrote:It is?? But all these other applications (acrobat, netscape, mozilla, word, openoffice, powerpoint, the entire office suite (I guess), and several others) all use it and they are that abhorrent?


The Office suite counts as one app there, not as many as you can ram home to try to reinforce your point. OpenOffice is an Office clone and like most clones is as determined to implement the bad user interface features of its parent as the good. That makes four apps on your list (Acrobat, Office, OpenOffice, Mozilla) comparing to ten on mine, and none of your four make it to my 'ten most used' list. Phoenix weighs in at 11 and it's on my side currently.

aarem wrote:First of all, it is not true in most applications! Certainly not the most common and useful ones, anyway. From my experience, most windoze users are not into keyboard bindings and in any case, the gui "x" users are not the same as the keybinding users (can't be).


The first is a lie (see above) and the second is an argument AGAINST ctrl-Q, because having ctrl-Q (close everything) next to ctrl-W (close a single tab, recoverable) is even more dangerous for people using keyboard shortcuts.

Very Microsofty!!


Where's the dollar sign? If you're going to act like a sterotypical linux zealot you need a dollar sign in Microsoft...

It does not "personally inconvenience" me greatly. I can always go back to Mozilla which today is standard across windoze and other OS's -- has the same interface.


Mozilla is slightly nonstandard on Windows and totally nonstandard on MacOS, and Linux doesn't really have standards as far as user interfaces go. If you mean it's consistent, yes it is - but consistence in menus across operating systems with different UI guidelines is ocasionally troublesome.

I use Phoenix because it is important to support the movement against bloat. Therefore, I think that this is against the grain of promoting standards. I think it is silly that just because some people can not distinguish between "close" and "quit" , they would get rid of the head to cure their headache!!


I think it's silly that a stupid power-user option like "Kill process" is on the menu bar to serve a few lazy geeks, at the expense of several sore heads from people losing all their data accidentally. "promotion of standards" is not what this is about, because you're asking for a nonstandard option.

Of course, getting rid of this file->exit menu is extremely silly because it would mean eliminating a way of killing the application cleanly. You may be unaware, but closing thewindow by using that "x" does not necessarily kill the process but may actually create an illegal process. These things matter for optimization of CPU resources (for actual computing users) -- even you may find the hourglass tiresome after a while....power CPU users would definitely get out of phoenix then!!


Just because I'm using Windows (note spelling - W and S are closer together than Z and E on my keyboard) does not mean I am not an "actual computing user". I prefer my operating system to serve ME first and ITSELF second, because this is a desktop machine designed to allow me to work productively.

I do not need nor want application-specific keyboard shortcuts which apply to the process rather than the document. I DO want the application to obey established operating system keyboard shortcuts (such as Alt-F4) rather than using its own.

This all applies only to Windows of course. Heaven forbid that I argue against X logic which dictates that every key on my keyboard has three associated modifier shortcuts, requires three pages of tables devoted to them, and implements them all regardless of how it's done in any other application or indeed on any machine other than the coder's.

- Chris

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 3:03 pm

This discussion is pointless. The Phoenix developers <i>explicitly removed</i> the Ctrl+Q shortcut because of the problems and possible data-loss issues of accidentally hitting Ctrl+Q instead of Ctrl+W. Just read the discussion about the shortcut in Mozilla: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52821

If you really really want to close down the whole application, including all active downloads, just hit Alt+F, X. Don't expect the developers to add this dangerous shortcut again.

Ask yourself, how often do you really feel the need to close down Phoenix completely, and on the few occations you do, does Alt+F,X really take that much longer to press?!

daihardM3

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 3:18 pm

djst wrote:This discussion is pointless. The Phoenix developers <i>explicitly removed</i> the Ctrl+Q shortcut because of the problems and possible data-loss issues of accidentally hitting Ctrl+Q instead of Ctrl+W. Just read the discussion about the shortcut in Mozilla: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52821

If you really really want to close down the whole application, including all active downloads, just hit Alt+F, X. Don't expect the developers to add this dangerous shortcut again.


I'd still like to see 'ctrl + Q' return at least as a user preference option for the sake of consistency. Almost all the other applications I use (e.g. Konqueror, Kmail, Knode, xine, OpenOffice, Yahoo! Messenger, etc) have this option to quit. It'd be great to be able to quit Phoenix in the same way.

djst wrote:Ask yourself, how often do you really feel the need to close down Phoenix completely, and on the few occations you do, does Alt+F,X really take that much longer to press?!


For me, it's a matter of consistency. Once I'm used to closing all the other apps using 'ctrl + Q', it's hard for my fingers to remember otherwise on one or two particular apps.

I understand the danger of hitting 'ctrl + Q' instead of 'ctrl + W'. That's why I'm proposing the return of this feature as part of the user preferences, so that you can choose not to enable it if you're one of those who make that kind of mistake.

djst
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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 3:37 pm

daihardM3 wrote:I understand the danger of hitting 'ctrl + Q' instead of 'ctrl + W'. That's why I'm proposing the return of this feature as part of the user preferences, so that you can choose not to enable it if you're one of those who make that kind of mistake.


And that's exactly why it will never be implemented again, because Phoenix is not ment to have useless preferences for every little detail in the program. It's supposed to be the best browser for most people. Most people don't need a shortcut for cancelling their downloads (and close Phoenix at the same time).

daihardM3

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 3:46 pm

djst wrote:And that's exactly why it will never be implemented again, because Phoenix is not ment to have useless preferences for every little detail in the program. It's supposed to be the best browser for most people. Most people don't need a shortcut for cancelling their downloads (and close Phoenix at the same time).


Who are the 'most people' for you? Altough I can really only speak for myself, I'd think almost all KDE users would appreciate the return of 'ctrl + Q'. Do you also assume that 'most people' accidentally hit 'ctrl + Q' when they mean to hit 'ctrl + W'? Some users might find that assumption a bit insulting.

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 4:21 pm

daihardM3 wrote:Do you also assume that 'most people' accidentally hit 'ctrl + Q' when they mean to hit 'ctrl + W'? Some users might find that assumption a bit insulting.


I accidentally hit "close all other tabs" when I wanted to "close this tab" so many times I finally stopped using the tabmenu all togheter.
If I'd be using ctrl+w I'm sure I would hit ctrl+q now and again. And if I can do it so can my old retired father...

daihardM3

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Post Posted November 17th, 2002, 4:41 pm

Stefan wrote:I accidentally hit "close all other tabs" when I wanted to "close this tab" so many times I finally stopped using the tabmenu all togheter.
If I'd be using ctrl+w I'm sure I would hit ctrl+q now and again. And if I can do it so can my old retired father...


Thanks for your reply. I've been using Tabbed Browsing (and 'ctrl + W') for a while and never happened to hit 'ctrl + Q' instead. I guess it's because I hold the Ctrl key with my left pinky and hit 'W' with my middle finger. When my left pinky is on the Ctrl key, my middle finger naturally falls on the 'W' key. Likewise, I use my ring finger to hit 'Q' since that's the most natural position for me. In order to hit 'Q' with my middle finger, I'd have to do so quite consciously.

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