How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Discussion of bugs in Mozilla Firefox
Dorus
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by Dorus »

Ok ok, i provide my thought.

On the web, your data travels trough a lot of random hardware, owned by a lot of people/organisations. Each one of those could be listening to the data steam, change it, fake it or let it pass as they should. When they intercept and change the DNS request, they got full control over what server you will visit next.
Thus, a http site is never secure, and even trough 99.99% of the time, you are connecting to the right server, you can never be sure (especially at public access points) that you are not eavesdropped or getting scammed.

More people should be aware of this fact, and firefox is making good steps into showing this to end users. Remember that if you write anything with more then 10 words in a tooltip, almost nobody will read it. Second, for most websites, who cares if the connection is secure? Nobody is interested in intercepting this very post. So for most websites, this situation is perfectly fine, including your gaming site, right?

Now that internet is getting more and more used, and also used for more privacy sensitive, its required to add security. For example, when i'm talking to my bank, i don't want anybody to see my money, or worse, insert a message that i'm going to transfer all my money to some foreign bank account. Thus, encryption is used to prevent this. But arguable, what use does encryption have if my DNS request changed and i'm not talking to my bank, but to some random phishing server? And yes, that happens.

Thus, there is another level of security where you also verify the identity of who you talk to.

Problem is, how do you verify somebody's identity? There are a lot of models to think up on how to do that, currently used is that when i trust VeriSign and VeriSign trust sierranevada, then i trust sierranevada too.

Looking from this point of view, thus the end-user, it makes sense to warn when the identity of a secure website is not verified. Truth is that you could be connected to the wrong website. The big question is how important it is that the identity is not verified, if the answer to that question is 'not so important', then you can ignore this.

You could of course claim that you should be allowed to fill in a name at your self singed cert, but criminals can write your name at there certs too, so that provide no security, and would only confuse the end user into thinking they are talking to the right website.

From a webmaster point of view, it would make sense that you can change a field that say 'this website does not provide this information' by providing that information. But the whole point of verifying your identity is that it can only be done by a trusted source. (A trusted source you have to pay a lot of money for it, probably send your surname, first name, middle name, last name, fingerprints, and more). Next the end user has to trust a party that get paid by providing a lot of identity papers, and not for rejecting them. Not perfect, but the best that can currently be done, and also a reason why a security level between nothing and encrypted+verified exist.


ps. I'm now unsure if i hit the the mood point of the discussion, but for me is comes down to 'yes your SSL cert is less secure then a EV SSL cert, and firefox mentions exactly the difference between the two. However this is not necessary a problem.'

pps. IE 7 also adds a huge question mark to the security pop-up when you click it on a normal https site, only on a site that also provide identity information the adress bar becomes green and a correct sign is added to the image in the pop-up.
Image
(dutch text)
Last edited by Dorus on January 23rd, 2009, 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BvdB
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by BvdB »

The questions you mention are IMO adressed by the "extended validation" initiative and the respective browser coding:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_V ... ertificate

This is all about encrypted (HTTPS) communication and the certificates used therein, as you write "to warn when the identity of a secure website is not verified."

But this thread is about the _non_encrypted sites, the ones that do not even claim to be secure.
It is here that I and some other website operators feel that the Firefox message is somehow "overdone".
Dorus
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by Dorus »

Ah, i thought it was about the encrypted sites. But for non-encrypted sites, it's certainly true that they are not secure or protected. So the message is no more then correct. Filling in the owned field would only be something that can be abused by phishing sites.

All in all the only illogical thing in the entire favicon security information thing is the tooltip for insecure sites. Now it says 'website does not provide identity information' while something like 'website is not secured' or 'website is not encrypted' would be more logical. More or less switching the first and the second line in the pop-up, as encryption comes before identity information. And also because encryption is covers the meaning better. 'secured' might sound to unsafe again.
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centralb
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by centralb »

=D>
BvdB wrote:Yes, but this site (and Yahoo, Google) do not supply fresh water as well - so why don't we send a warning?:
This website does not supply fresh water.
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Deja-Vu
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by Deja-Vu »

http or https in the urlbar should be all thats needed to identify if its encrypted or not. Anything else is a false positive. Ther eis NO way firefox or anyone else can determine if the site is who the say they are by either type cert and they should quit claiming such.
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Theodric
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by Theodric »

When clicking on the padlock icon, for an https site with a regular (non-EV) certificate, you get the following, seemingly self-contradictory message:

Web site: bugzilla.mozilla.org
Owner: This website does not supply identity information.
Verified by: Equifax
This website provides a certificate to verify its identity.


This really confused me until I read more about EV certificates. The second line implies that there is no identity information at all provided by the website, which contradicts the fourth line. What seems more appropriate (to me) would be "The owner of this website cannot be verified". I think it would be even better if it included the Organization field from the certificate, for example:

Owner: Mozilla Corporation (the identity of this owner has not been verified).

-Theodric
teoli2003
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by teoli2003 »

The information in the page info is indeed confusing. I don't know if an entry of bugzilla for this double use of identity has been done. If not, we should.

(This thread was originally about the content of the drop down windows appearing when clicking on the favicon, not the padlock, which is much clearer than the Page info appearing when clicking on the padlock)
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BvdB
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by BvdB »

Why not, look into Bugzilla if a related topic already existst, and if not add a new Bug.
There seems to be the same over-anxious-over-done attitude behind this message and the other ones discussed here, but technically it is a separate issue.
Theodric
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by Theodric »

Ok, this topic is addressed and debated in bug 429021. I added my 2 cents that the information, as presented, seems self-contradictory.
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by geeknik »

BvdB wrote:Yes, but this site (and Yahoo, Google) do not supply fresh water as well - so why don't we send a warning?:
This website does not supply fresh water.


I actually LOL'd at that. You do make a good point. :)
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by teoli2003 »

You don't think where his reasoning is flawed? There is a big one, though.

When you go to http://www.mozilla.org you don't expect to get fresh water, but you expect to be connected to www.mozilla.org (or even to the Mozilla Foundation). But with http you don't have this guarantee. So, that's because of your expectation not being guaranteed that the message of the UI is useful, but not the one proposed by BvdB.

@theodric: commenting in bugzilla to express an opinion and not helping to solve the problem is against the bugzilla's etiquette and the best way to make a bug be forgotten and never corrected. There is already a patch, once reviewed work on it will resume until them, nothing to be done on the bug entry.
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BvdB
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by BvdB »

Thank you for throwing me the ball to explain the water aspect more clearly:
- When one goes to http://mozilla.org they expect to see a web site.
- They expect to see a "verified identity" just as much as they expect fresh water: not at all.

And, help me, which would be the one message that I proposed and that would "not be useful"?
The best solution would be to leave a message about "website identity" (interesting notion anyway) away completely with http sites. https is a different story, which is not debated here.

Regarding bugzilla, if all messages "not helping to solve the problem" (technically) would be misplaced there, you could delete 75 percent of the records.
Instead, Bugzilla is just as well a place for discussion about possible solutions - just like any other bug tracking (or: quality assurance) solution is.
teoli2003
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by teoli2003 »

BvdB wrote:Thank you for throwing me the ball to explain the water aspect more clearly:
- When one goes to http://mozilla.org they expect to see a web site.
- They expect to see a "verified identity" just as much as they expect fresh water: not at all.

You're still wrong. They don't get the (not) verified identity by merely visiting the site (I already told you that), but when clicking on the favicon (or the padlock), an explicit action to get more information on the website. At that point, they *want* more information about the identity of the site, they still don't want freshwater.

Regarding bugzilla, if all messages "not helping to solve the problem" (technically) would be misplaced there, you could delete 75 percent of the records.
Instead, Bugzilla is just as well a place for discussion about possible solutions - just like any other bug tracking (or: quality assurance) solution is.

It is not because some other do the same, that it is good. Read: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=etiquette.html .
Debates do not belong to bugzilla, they belong to the Mozilla newsgroups. Developers often complain about this in different bugs.
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Bluefang
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by Bluefang »

Oh, I love how this discussion keeps going around in circles.

BvdB and company, you've made your point (numerous times) and continuing to repeat your self serves absolutely no purpose. There is an open bug so the developers are aware of a discontent with the current implementation, so there isn't anything more you can do with out annoying both us and the developers.
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GameFreak7744
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Re: How to supply "web site identity information" - as

Post by GameFreak7744 »

Just adding that as a(nother) website owner I was also confused by this message, hence ending up on this topic from a Google search. The wording 'does not' as apposed to 'can not' led me to think it would be possible for my (HTTP) site to supply 'identity information'... I gather from what I've read here that this isn't so, but I had to find this thread to find out what the message meant. The second part of the message ('Your connection to this website is not encrypted') is totally clear, but the first part is somewhat misleading,
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