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jez

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Post Posted April 29th, 2014, 1:13 pm

Am I right in thinking that the Bookmarks and History sidebars have now been removed too? If so that's another one to go in the FAQ.
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patrickjdempsey

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Post Posted April 29th, 2014, 1:15 pm

The buttons were removed but you can access them via the various menu entries for the keyboard shortcuts.
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jez

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Post Posted April 29th, 2014, 1:25 pm

patrickjdempsey wrote:The buttons were removed but you can access them via the various menu entries for the keyboard shortcuts.

Ah, I see. Still, the intention is clear, I think... those sidebars will be totally gone soon enough.
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Post Posted April 29th, 2014, 1:55 pm

Probably, although several devs have claimed otherwise.
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Post Posted April 29th, 2014, 6:15 pm

A few Nightly builds ago, they have added an Icon to the MenuPanel to open the History/Bookbmarks sidebar - not the most elegant as when you click the Icon you them have to highlight/click the option, whereas in the old days there was a single-click button to open it I believe.

So... in the next few release cycles, it should be in Firefox 32... assuming it stays.

PS. I don't think it got back-ported into 29, but you could check in the Customize pallet to make sure its not hiding there.

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Post Posted April 29th, 2014, 6:52 pm

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... erestorer/ .....Has the usual Bookmarks/History sidebar buttons..have them on the right of the Navbar.
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Post Posted April 29th, 2014, 7:09 pm

TheVisitor wrote:So... in the next few release cycles, it should be in Firefox 32... assuming it stays.

PS. I don't think it got back-ported into 29, but you could check in the Customize pallet to make sure its not hiding there.

Might be in 30. All the code was finished then and the PanelUI button for it appeared then. I added my toolbar button then and it's only a toggle to existing code anyway. No idea why default has taken so long to add the button though.

But, yeah, I was told 30, but who knows?
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Post Posted April 30th, 2014, 6:44 am

Honestly why would they take away the ability to move the refresh/stop button?

I like it on the LEFT side, not the god damn right side.
What a terrible decision. I'm really shocked right now the devs could come up with ANY reason to do this.
Dumb.

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Post Posted April 30th, 2014, 7:38 am

psilo707 wrote:Honestly why would they take away the ability to move the refresh/stop button?

I like it on the LEFT side, not the god damn right side.
What a terrible decision. I'm really shocked right now the devs could come up with ANY reason to do this.
Dumb.

Does laziness (to maintain the code and do support) count as a reason?
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Post Posted April 30th, 2014, 6:59 pm

No, and if you'd ever actually looked at the code you would know that is just a flat out lie. Lazy people don't spend 2 years making features more complicated in order to reduce work.
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jez

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Post Posted May 1st, 2014, 3:07 am

patrickjdempsey wrote:No, and if you'd ever actually looked at the code you would know that is just a flat out lie. Lazy people don't spend 2 years making features more complicated in order to reduce work.

I don't agree with you, at least not on the UI side. They're making the desktop and mobile interfaces similar and simpler so as to reduce cross-platform development time, and possibly reduce support requests. IMHO the UX people see it as their challenge to make a "unified" browser interface across devices, just like Microsoft did with OS interfaces with Windows 8. What they fail to accept is that it's probably a bad idea, and they should be aiming for substantially different interfaces for different form factors. But of course, that would require more work.

Oh and the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" thing falls on deaf ears with them too. I watched some smug Air Mozilla thing where they compared changing browser interfaces to changing clothes - you might want to do it sometimes even if your clothes right now are fine. So there we have it. UX people are screwing around with your browser interface, partially because they see it as "fashion". They have time to learn new layouts and change constantly, even if you don't.
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Post Posted May 1st, 2014, 4:07 am

jez wrote:IMHO the UX people see it as their challenge to make a "unified" browser interface across devices, just like Microsoft did with OS interfaces with Windows 8. What they fail to accept is that it's probably a bad idea, and they should be aiming for substantially different interfaces for different form factors. But of course, that would require more work.
...
Oh and the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" thing falls on deaf ears with them too.


It seems to be an industry fashion to revamp or "modernise" UIs every so often. It's not just the browser vendors. Pretty much every big UI change is bound to piss off tons of people. Look at Windows 8. Something similar happened with Microsoft's Visual Studio 2012 as well. Microsoft was forced to address many (though not all) of the concerns. But after a while, maybe after a few tweaks, the fuss dies down.

At least Firefox tends to be more flexible in that it is easier to undo more of the damage than you can with the other browsers. Chrome is far more restrictive for example.

jez

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Post Posted May 1st, 2014, 4:20 am

Kevin McFarlane wrote:But after a while, maybe after a few tweaks, the fuss dies down.

Oh so that's the excuse? If we stay stubborn for long enough, people will quiet down because they have lives to lead? That still shows utter contempt for users, and it only works if users don't have an easy alternative. With Windows 8 you can argue that they didn't (although Windows 7 is still pretty popular so maybe they did), but with Firefox people can leave in droves. I really think developers need to get over this "we're right and you're wrong" mentality. Sure, users are sometimes stubborn and just don't like change. Other times, they are using the thing a lot and they are productive with it. They can be productive with it, because it's designed well, and changing it is just a plain bad idea.
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Post Posted May 1st, 2014, 4:46 am

Image

Kevin McFarlane
 
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Post Posted May 1st, 2014, 5:10 am

jez wrote:
Kevin McFarlane wrote:But after a while, maybe after a few tweaks, the fuss dies down.

Oh so that's the excuse? If we stay stubborn for long enough, people will quiet down because they have lives to lead? That still shows utter contempt for users, and it only works if users don't have an easy alternative.


I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I'm just describing the way things are.

With Windows 8 you can argue that they didn't (although Windows 7 is still pretty popular so maybe they did), but with Firefox people can leave in droves.


Except that the UI changes to Firefox are akin to what's already in the mainstream alternatives. One reason I've chosen Firefox was because I didn't like the UIs of the alternatives. Now that Firefox is more similar to them I'm hardly likely to switch to them for refuge.


I really think developers need to get over this "we're right and you're wrong" mentality. Sure, users are sometimes stubborn and just don't like change. Other times, they are using the thing a lot and they are productive with it. They can be productive with it, because it's designed well, and changing it is just a plain bad idea.


Yes, I think UI changes should be much more incremental and ideally should allow continual user feedback/refinement. Devs need to realise that even the tiniest of UI changes will piss off some users. So big changes can be expected to piss off lots.

A common criticism is that users don't like change. While this is true of many, for me, at any rate, it depends on the change. I don't mind being offered more or better options. I do mind when options are removed and not replaced by something better.

But I agree it's also a difficult job because we all use products differently. Many are attracted to Google Chrome because of its streamlined simplicity while for me I was unattracted for the same reason, i.e., it lacked features and usability (think, e.g., the initial version of Chrome - but that still applies today - for me).

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