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Firefox ESR, Pale Moon (or another non-Australis fork)

Discussion of third-party/unofficial Firefox/Thunderbird/SeaMonkey builds.
LoudNoise
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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 9:39 am

You are mistaking disagreement with bitterness and claiming that this developer is somehow different from normal people.

1) Will the project survive? Ultimately no. Sooner or later the fellow will decided that it is to much of an effort, will change browsers, get a new job that takes more of his time or simply get hit by a car. There is very little chance that someone else will take it over simply because there are a number of third party alternatives that do the same thing. Examples: The number of abandoned Third Party builds listed here and the number of abandoned extensions and themes.

2) Will these folks be able to ignore Australis? With extension they can hide it but at the code level, no. Australis is more then a theme change.

3) Will they lose support for extension? It depends on what they change. Supporting extensions and themes is much more then just a GRID number. SeaMonkey, which seems to have a larger userbase, isn't that will supported by extensions. Things are getting better because someone in the SeaMonkey community has created a converter. The chances of that the extension folks are going to support a single OS browser with a small userbase isn't all that great.

4) Isn't a different project? As far as I can tell no. Do a diff on the both code bases and you would not find a great deal of differences (at least as of a few months ago). The differences in features on the UI are mostly trivial and can mostly be had by extensions.

Just a note about my Fanboy comment. It isn't a good idea to jump into with a comment that is unrelated to the topic at hand. This happens all of the time, we are trying to support someone and fix a problem and some who uses PaleMoon, Waterfox or whatever suggests they use their favorite version. What this was split off of is a good example. Someone suggested that ESR was a good way thing to change to and the folks involved pointed out why it wasn't. The first thing I split off at thread was "USE Whatever!". This wasn't a conversation about alternatives. Trippynet decided it was a conversation about PaleMoon in general, which it wasn't. Trippynet could have easily started a new thread about this topic rather then try to change the subject of someone else's thread. It was split and the problem was solved.
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mightyglydd

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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 10:14 am

Trippynet wrote:FUD is Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

edited by LN

@WTF is this repetitive garbage in General and not where it belongs...either Locked..or in Third Party/Unofficial Builds :roll:
#KeepFightingMichael and Alex.

Frank Lion

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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 1:50 pm

mightyglydd wrote:
Trippynet wrote:FUD is Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

edited by LN

@WTF is this repetitive garbage in General and not where it belongs...either Locked..or in Third Party/Unofficial Builds :roll:


It's a fair point, why is this Third Party Build stuff in Firefox General at all?

If readers glance at my UA string lately, they may notice that I am using SeaMonkey atm, does it matter why? Anyone see me bang on about SM in Firefox General or any other Firefox forum? In the Firefox Support forum, anyone see me suggest it to people or do you instead, as you will, see me give Firefox-related advice to Firefox problems.

Now, the mods probably think they are being kind and even-handed by allowing this stuff here and certainly I don't mind if any browser or build is mentioned in passing from time to time. However, I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here quietly while some Third Party Build apologist whacks off writing utter drivel about it! We had enough of all that from the Oprah guys years back.

So, now we get to the ironic part that has been brought to my attention, how do the advocates of this, of many, particular build repay the mod's generosity and even-handedness by letting them post at all in Firefox General? I'll tell you, they abuse them -

http://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4607
http://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4769

Not only that, the developer of the build actually takes a lead role in the insults! That's the thanks the mods get.That is what you always get with damn fanbois, nothing but damn insults and trouble.

I suggest that from now on, every single mention of any third party build browser is automatically split off and moved to our Third Party Builds/Unofficial Build Forum, where they should have been in the first place.

No discussion, no agonising, no debate, just split the damn things off to there.
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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 2:47 pm

I agree with Frank that in the future every single mention of any third party build browser be split off and moved to the mozillaZine Third Party Builds/Unofficial Build Forum.

MoonChild of MoonChild Production, which releases PaleMoon has stated in the SuMO Contributors forum that PaleMoon isn't a 3rd party build of Firefox, it's a completely separate Gecko browser. IMO, PaleMoon users can't have it both ways; posting in the Firefox fora here AND saying it's not Firefox.




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mightyglydd

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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 2:51 pm

Yep, needless to say I wholeheartedly agree, enough already....
#KeepFightingMichael and Alex.

patrickjdempsey

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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 4:02 pm

the-edmeister wrote:MoonChild of MoonChild Production, which releases PaleMoon has stated in the SuMO Contributors forum that PaleMoon isn't a 3rd party build of Firefox, it's a completely separate Gecko browser. IMO, PaleMoon users can't have it both ways; posting in the Firefox fora here AND saying it's not Firefox.


Then he needs to change the GUID and make it official. And when he does that, and all of the extensions stop working, then everyone who made the switch will be upset and they'll all start looking for the next easy fix. The long and the short of it is this: there is no free lunch. And eventually that reality is going to come knocking.
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malliz
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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 4:11 pm

patrickjdempsey wrote:
Then he needs to change the GUID and make it official.

And end the free ride! :shock:
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LoudNoise
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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 5:19 pm

One point I would like to make about the links Frank offered just just because it annoys me. I have done in this thread is point out the why PaleMoon isn't going to be a fork. At no time did I attack an individual. I am more then a bit annoyed to the poster boy of the attacks over there.
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patrickjdempsey

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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 5:48 pm

So does this mean PaleMoon folks would be happy if we went over to their forum and started suggesting everyone switch to SeaMonkey every time there's a hiccup?
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malliz
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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 7:39 pm

patrickjdempsey wrote:So does this mean PaleMoon folks would be happy if we went over to their forum and started suggesting everyone switch to SeaMonkey every time there's a hiccup?

What do you think :roll:
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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 7:54 pm

LoudNoise wrote:One point I would like to make about the links Frank offered just just because it annoys me. I have done in this thread is point out the why PaleMoon isn't going to be a fork. At no time did I attack an individual. I am more then a bit annoyed to the poster boy of the attacks over there.

Unfortunately that is the way of the fanboy .....aggressive arrogant illogical and bad mannered. I often wonder if they talk to people in the street like that? My guess is not they are usually cowards. When you look at those forum posts you can pick out the old MZ Trolls with an axe to grind :D


the-edmeister wrote:MoonChild of MoonChild Production, which releases PaleMoon has stated in the SuMO Contributors forum that PaleMoon isn't a 3rd party build of Firefox, it's a completely separate Gecko browser.

He says a lot of things and then backflips.... guys an opportunist
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Trippynet

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Post Posted June 12th, 2014, 6:49 am

You are mistaking disagreement with bitterness and claiming that this developer is somehow different from normal people.

Will the project survive? Ultimately no.


I do not think he is necessarily different, it's just how you define normal people. Is everyone normal? Of course not. Some alternative builds has been abandoned, but that does not mean that all alternative builds will definitely be abandoned. Similarly, you cannot make a final decision on whether the build will survive or not. Maybe it becomes bigger and other people offer to assist such that you have several people working on it. Who knows? You can of course say that you don't personally think it'll survive, but you cannot make a final judgement one way or the other because nobody knows for sure. This is part of my problem here. You have an opinion and keep trying to pass it off as fact. However, it's not a fact, it's just your opinion.

Will these folks be able to ignore Australis? With extension they can hide it but at the code level, no. Australis is more then a theme change.


Again, difficult to say for sure. I think anything is possible with code if you try hard enough. FF managed to go from not having Australis in one build to having it in the next, so I don't see why it'd be impossible to remove it again. Actually, I don't really care personally if PM does end up with some Australis in the background, so long as I can move all of the elements of the UI around as I please and do away with the rounded tabs if I want (they look messy IMO once you have 20+ tabs open). Like I say, we all have our opinions about this, but nobody can make a definite 100% call until the new ESR is released and a new build of Pale Moon is released following this. Once that time comes, then we'll know for sure.

Will they lose support for extension? It depends on what they change. Supporting extensions and themes is much more then just a GRID number. SeaMonkey, which seems to have a larger userbase, isn't that will supported by extensions. Things are getting better because someone in the SeaMonkey community has created a converter. The chances of that the extension folks are going to support a single OS browser with a small userbase isn't all that great.


A fair point, this is probably why the developer is loathe to change the GUID if it can be avoided. Trying to retain most of the original FF code that addons rely upon is the best way of maintaining compatibility with them, and having compatibility with FF's addons is one of Pale Moon's strengths compared with more diverse forks or different browsers. As time goes on and Australis matures, we'll have to see how the impact is with that and addons. As I say, nobody can make a definite judgement on how it'll pan out.

Just a note about my Fanboy comment. It isn't a good idea to jump into with a comment that is unrelated to the topic at hand. This happens all of the time, we are trying to support someone and fix a problem and some who uses PaleMoon, Waterfox or whatever suggests they use their favorite version


I would argue that it was Frank who dragged the thread off-topic. PM was mentioned, but amongst other suggestions and in a way that was within the context of the topic. It was immediately after this that the complaints started with:

Please stop pimping this stuff here, it's getting very old now.


I'm aware it's now totally off topic, and splitting it was a good idea, but if someone is going to jump on a comment like that, expect others to defend them.

It's a fair point, why is this Third Party Build stuff in Firefox General at all?


I'm happy for it to be shifted. LoudNoise split the original thread and I left it where he put it. If that's not right, I'm not bothered about it being shifted to a more appropriate forum.

So does this mean PaleMoon folks would be happy if we went over to their forum and started suggesting everyone switch to SeaMonkey every time there's a hiccup?


Actually, if someone has a problem with Pale Moon because of something it either doesn't do, or does in a way that someone isn't happy with and someone else suggests SeaMonkey as a workable alternative, believe it or not I'd actually be fine with that. The Pale Moon homepage readily admits that PM is not a solution for everyone (the lack of parental controls being a prime example). In which case, the PM site admits that Firefox might be a better fit for people in this situation.

certainly I don't mind if any browser or build is mentioned in passing from time to time.


My turn to pull you up on one. It was mentioned in passing and within context in the original thread and it was yourself that pounced on it, complained, and drove the thread off topic in the first place. Please practice what you preach.

Not only that, the developer of the build actually takes a lead role in the insults! That's the thanks the mods get.That is what you always get with damn fanbois, nothing but damn insults and trouble.


The first post you linked to was a clear and calm look at the issue. On mozillaZine, there's a lot of mud-flinging, FUD, misinterpretation of facts, etc (and the developer is best placed to know what's true and what isn't). That post was intended to be a look at that. The second one, well that was hardly a surprise either. I struggle to see though why you classify everything as an insult. Most of it is calm conversation. Where it does mainly go beyond that is when you pounce on people here, lambast them as being fanboys, then look surprised when people on PM's forums react in disbelief to your attitude.

Also (incidentally), just because someone mentions something, doesn't make them a fanboy. To confirm the definition, a fanboy is "A passionate fan who lets his passion override social graces". Myself and many others have tried hard to maintain social grace, unlike many people here on mozillaZine. Furthermore, I wouldn't even describe myself as a passionate fan. I just prefer PM's interface over Firefox's. I'd happily drop it tomorrow if something better were to come along.

Anyway, we're going in circles here. So, I'm going to put it as bluntly as I can: There is a real attitude problem on mozillaZine. A culture of pouncing on people who dare to mention the wrong thing, firing accusations of "fanboyism" and "BS", of making up wild claims and reporting them as fact, and doing everything possible to attack the integrity of anyone who you consider to not be fully aligned with the Mozilla way of thinking. Then, you act surprised when people notice this elsewhere. Even my attempts here to discuss things maturely resulted in wild accusations and abrasive, derogatory responses being fired back, instead of calm, reasoned responses.

I'm sure you'll do your usual rounding on this and firing of grumbles, insults and accusations as normal. However, a number of you need to take a real, hard look in the mirror. You might find you resemble the accusations you're flinging around rather more than you might suspect.

My advice: Grow up, calm down, and learn to react sensibly and maturely to people instead of jumping headlong down their throats all the time. Remember the differences between a fact and an opinion and for pete's sake, lighten up a bit!!

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Post Posted June 12th, 2014, 7:12 am

Has the fat Lady sung yet. Or do we have to put up with another lecture from this boring fart?
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LoudNoise
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Post Posted June 12th, 2014, 7:55 am

With the exception of you, and I only give you some point here, I have yet see anyone from PaleMoon who didn't met the description of you gave of Fanboy. There is a lot of disagreement which you decided to take personally by suggesting anything we brought up was FUD. .

Things started to go wrong here: viewtopic.php?p=13606709#p13606709

When we pointed out things your responses were this isn't true, many because you it like it better. When we pointed out the obvious, small projects don't last long, if they do "fork" and the codes starts to mess with extensions or if they change GRID the chances of the extension community following them is almost nil, that code isn't very different at all from the basecode so it really isn't a folk, we were spreading FUD.

I'll let this go one more round then it will be locked.



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Post Posted June 12th, 2014, 9:13 am

Trippynet wrote: Myself and many others have tried hard to maintain social grace

Chum, a carpetbagger with social grace is still a carpetbagger.

Trippynet wrote:My advice:

...is worthless.

The clue is written below my avatar. The oxygen of publicity here for this build outside of this rarely visited Third Party/Unofficial Build forum has now been extinguished.
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