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Firefox's unusable minimalism problem.

Discussion of general topics about Mozilla Firefox
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Post Posted September 15th, 2006, 9:17 am

Although you might have a good idea or two, you'll never get anywhere this way. You've just thrown out a bunch of wild assertions in a shotgun blast, as if everyone will automatically see the wisdom of what you are saying and start working to fulfill all of your dreams. If you have a good idea, you have to sell it, carefully and persuasively.

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Post Posted September 15th, 2006, 9:19 am

JAB Creations wrote:Do they have Java disabled to block viruses?

This is actually a good point. Java should be enabled only with a warning. Previous versions have vulnerabilities that have been exploited. <i>It is actually possible to get a virus by using Fx in the default configuration.</i> See bugs 306606 and 271559. Implementing countermeasures is a high-priority item for future releases.

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Post Posted September 15th, 2006, 10:05 am

I know that showing the New Tab button, or at least always showing the tab bar by default has been considered before. Along with other ideas to make the feature more discoverable. I'm not sure where that discussion went.

Do users really need extra buttons to get to their History and Bookmarks though? There are already menu items labeled with the exact same names. For that matter, are users really confused by the Go button? It looks like the "Play" button on every Walkman/CD/DVD player thats been released for 20 years. Is it that confusing?

JAB Creations

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Post Posted September 28th, 2006, 7:03 am

It seems someone on here is childish enough to CREATE a bug in Firefox just to intentionally circumvent my personal layout and the layout I have created for hundreds of people I have installed Firefox for.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=353657

If someone doesn't agree that is fine but going to the extent of creating a bug in a program just to piss someone off is beyond low.

Strephon Alkhalikoi

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Post Posted September 28th, 2006, 8:08 pm

Well to be honest, since it is you who is pissing people off with your attitude, are you REALLY surprised to see that someone went and "created" (yeah right!) a bug specifically targeting your layout?

I read this thread, due to your link on the news page regarding the release of RC1. You come in here, blowing steam and expecting EVERYONE to fall down and kiss your feet simply because you believe that your way is the best way? Well chuckles, I saw your screenshot. You have something that works for you and works for your customers. But what you have shown everyone here wouldn't work for me. There is just way too much clutter in your solution. But, if you don't like how the default setup is done, take some of that knowhow that you claim to have and make a version of Firefox with all the tweaks to the toolbars that you like so much.

Perhaps next time you wish to speak, you'll actually keep in mind that you are in a position to demand nothing.
There is a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

JAB Creations

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Post Posted September 28th, 2006, 8:48 pm

This thread was never intended to be a flame in the least but to make some important critical suggestions for the GUI layout and increase the overall market share of Firefox. If you disagree thats fine but you need to take your flame somewhere else.

Again it is better to give people those options (that advanced users can modify and get rid of if thats the big thorn in the backside to so many people here) then to leave common users completely in the dark. We can not depend on everyone who downloads Firefox to learn to take advantage of features merely based on the thrill of discovery. They have visual and text based instructions on weapons used by people in the United States army that shows them which way to point a grenade launcher. Helping out the common person with computer software doesn't seem like such a bad idea if it gets them to use the features people have spent countless hours creating and maintaining.

In regards to demanding things the general public has no clue what application/xhtml+xml is nor it's benefits should Microsoft add it to IE. Should MS add features like that to it's browser? Should MS keep it's browser updated so all websites correctly coded work? Yes. They posted however that they are looking for the demands from regular people. How many regular people who have no clue what HTML is are going to demand such features? This is a case of would want it if they knew about it and I know most people don't know about most features in Firefox (let alone if they have even heard about it yet).

In the very least the folks here should be asking themselves what features are not being used widely that would most benefit regular computer users (and add to Firefox's popularity) and how it would make it thoughtlessly easy to use instead of hidden away where common people would never guess to find it on their own (in the absence of even knowing a computer savvy person). I'm willing to work on making my suggestions more clearly objective if that is what some people are looking for.

malliz
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Post Posted September 28th, 2006, 9:00 pm

Got to say after looking at your "Solution" that I wonder how many of your Clients think it's crap? To me it's to busy duplicates to much and looks messy and I would hate it. I think your insulting peoples intelligence by assuming that they are incapable of using the default settings, something that even computer novices have had no trouble with when I have installed it for them. Most comment on how easy it is to use. I think you are trying to ram your ideas down peoples throats just because they are your ideas. Shrink your ego a bit and have another look at the subject.
What sort of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.
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JAB Creations

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Post Posted September 29th, 2006, 6:42 am

It is an insult to not make the common person aware of features that would benefit them because of group of developer's choice to make the default settings unusably minimalistic. Is it your browser or everyone's? Is everyone more or less computer savvy? They are less and that is what Firefox's default GUI should be based off of. You know how to customize Firefox and how to remove what you don't want after the install. Otherwise Firefox is just another browser to the common person and even the abomination of a GUI with IE7 has a better default GUI even including the fact that the address bar has precedence over the file menu because at least the features are half accessible visually to the user. Most people are neither computer savvy nor do they have computer savvy people around them. Otherwise in one example does anyone here think 256MB Dells would be so popular? So long as you think like developers Firefox will remain a developer's only browser.

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Post Posted September 29th, 2006, 7:46 am

It seems someone on here is childish enough to CREATE a bug in Firefox just to intentionally circumvent my personal layout and the layout I have created for hundreds of people I have installed Firefox for.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=353657

If someone doesn't agree that is fine but going to the extent of creating a bug in a program just to piss someone off is beyond low.


Wow.

So long as you think like developers Firefox will remain a developer's only browser.


Hundred million developers in the world. 30% of Estonians are developers. Well I never.

Right, you're crazy. That's fine, we understand. It does, however, mean that nobody is going to listen to anything else you have to say.

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Post Posted September 29th, 2006, 8:20 am

JAB Creations wrote:The "open pages in a new tab" option also needs to be on by default. It is not in 1.5 (not sure about the default in 2.0). What is the point to all the TAB features if normal people will never access them? That 15% barrier a lot of people are complaining about Firefox not breaching is because of the unusable minimalism issue.

Designers don't know how to design and there is a massive problem with either too much junk or an extreme reaction to the junk that follows up with extreme unusable minimalism. Let's see some usable minimalism please!


Hear, hear!

I dumped Firefox about a year ago because pages weren't opening in new tabs and I couldn't work out how to get it to happen. Then, 2 or 3 months ago, I tried Firefox again and was very annoyed that I still couldn't see how to do it. It took a question in here to get it sorted - not good enough...

Paul.
Best wishes,

Paul.

Strephon Alkhalikoi

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Post Posted September 29th, 2006, 8:26 am

JAB, you have NO idea about what flames are. You also have no idea that it was your outburst that began the cycle that's rapidly getting this thread into the flame war level and totally ready for the bit bucket. If you have a problem with my posts, take it up with a moderator, but perhaps you should shelve that bruised ego first. Before talking, try actually listening to what is being said to you. Communication is a two-way street. You know how it works. I speak, then you listen. Then you speak and I listen. Now I had a bunch more that I was going to say, but seeing Thumper's post, I'm just going to leave you with a repeat of one thing I said in my last post to you. LISTEN CAREFULLY TO IT.

"If you don't like how the default setup is done, take some of that knowhow that you claim to have and make a version of Firefox with all the tweaks to the toolbars that you like so much."

Really it is that simple.
There is a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

old LoudNoise
 
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Post Posted September 29th, 2006, 8:26 am

I will never understand why these threads happen (outside of trolling). Browsers are free. Who cares?

Thumper

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Post Posted September 29th, 2006, 8:32 am

They break out because open source development makes it much more difficult to avoid having to interact with sociopaths on a regular basis. That's not to say that said sociopaths don't truly believe that they have the community's best interests at heart, but they're sociopaths nonetheless.

- Chris

JAB Creations

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Post Posted September 29th, 2006, 10:59 am

paulorton wrote:I dumped Firefox about a year ago because pages weren't opening in new tabs and I couldn't work out how to get it to happen. Then, 2 or 3 months ago, I tried Firefox again and was very annoyed that I still couldn't see how to do it. It took a question in here to get it sorted - not good enough...

Paul.


Of course we're posting a developer's concentrated forum but I think if we got more of the general public in here more people would agree with me. Thank you Paul for sharing your frustration at the useful but hidden features I am trying to advocate for.

A flame thread is where two people who disagree shovel insults at each other. This however is a thread where some people feel the need to harass those with a different opinion.

be

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Post Posted September 29th, 2006, 6:18 pm

Frankly, I'm surprised this thread has even gotten to flaming. If you ask me, JAB Creations has brought up some good points - and I am not in the slightest bit offended at how they were presented.

While we may share different opinions of the screenshot of the toolbar presented in the first post (I think it might be overkill for most users, to be honest), a new tab button would make a LOT of sense to 99% of the userbase, tho, IMO.

Anyway, can anyone argue against this being the default:
The "open pages in a new tab" option also needs to be on by default. It is not in 1.5 (not sure about the default in 2.0). What is the point to all the TAB features if normal people will never access them? That 15% barrier a lot of people are complaining about Firefox not breaching is because of the unusable minimalism issue.

I'm not sure what they've done with Firefox 2.0 either (will try the portable version from www.portableapps.com soon), but this default setting has always perplexed me. Anyone else? I mean....why make new windows (instead of new tabs) the default in a tabbed browser? Who likes multiple windows opening up by default? Then again it could be just me, but the reaction I've seen from people actually discovering new tabs tells me no, it's not just me.

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