Call for an official Mozilla Sunbird theme

markcarson · Post by **markcarson** » July 9th, 2004, 1:23 am

chrisw73

I hope I understand all of your suggestions (I'm not sure that I do) but in the spririt of your input I made another variation. Is this more what you had in mind?

The "ten to ten and 25 seconds" thing is easy to change at the "last moment" but I'm not sure why one time is better than another. I have no love for 3:00, it was just easy to draw and it does not conflict with the head at the bottom of the clock. I'm flexible on the displayed time.

I'm not exactly sure what Firefox/Thunderbird colors are. Are we talking color saturation or something else? The color are a first shot at something less "gold" than the previous logo. Feedback?

I'm not crazy about the tail either, but other angles I tried looked worse. I may work more on that aspect of the drawing.

<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/SunBird-7-200x200.png"> 200x200
<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/SunBird-7-48x48.png"> 48x48
<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/SunBird-7-32x32.png"> 32x32
<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/SunBird-7-24x24.png"> 24x24
<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/SunBird-7-16x16.png"> 16x16

I agree, page 19 has been painful. I'm happier collaborating, creating and posting alternative ideas than bickering :-)

BTW - I agree with Lazlo Woodbine that a calendar would seem more appropriate than a clock. I appreciate that a clock is a recognizable item (even at small pixel sizes) and does convey the notion of time, but if you look at the data views in Sunbird, they are more calendar than clock centric. So, I'm happy to brainstorm on logos with clocks, but I have to keep wondering if a calender in some form might not be better.

FlashBanG · Post by **FlashBanG** » July 9th, 2004, 5:42 am

A view of all three product icons side by side so we can compare them..

Looking at all three of them, i think the major difference i notice between the other two icons, and the sunbird one would be that the clock is overpowering the bird..

In the other two, the graphical emphasis was placed on the animal, and the object was something more of a background..

But in the sunbird icon, it seems as if the emphaisis is on the clock..

As far as the bird goes, i think the reason (IMHO) it looks a bit flat is that the sunbird is not as textured as the fox and the bird..
Perhaps if mark added some more features to the body of the bird, and used some contrasting gradients on the wings, it would look fuller?

Also, one other thing i noticed when putting them side by side..

The Fx and Tb logos make some point of keeping their namesake with their logos.. Now i might be the only one to see this, but the tail of the fox looks like fire, and the wings of the thunderbird look like a lightning bolt (kinda) to represent thunder.

I wonder if it would be possible to give the clock, or the bird a sunnish glow (emitting from it). I believe suslik's icon did this..

Not sure if you guys understand what i'm saying though (not sure i do completely either :P )

Anyway, my 2 cents for the day, and as always, my disclaimer that i suck at graphics, and all my suggestions should be taken with a pinch of salt ;)

BTW, glad we've moved on from page 19. Let's make page 20 the best yet! :P

sirchode · Post by **sirchode** » July 9th, 2004, 8:38 am

Mark, the new logo looks fantastic, I really like the new beak and (most of) the added color. I can only second FlashBanG's suggestion to add some more depth and detail as seen in the Firefox and Thunderbird logos. It would be hard to find fault if you could master the shadowing and detail which made the Ff and Tb logos look so polished. I would also suggest replacing the neon green with a color that's a little softer on the eyes :)

As far as the Calendar vs. Clock debate, that will probably never end. Like you said, a calendar would be more accurate but wouldn't look as nice, while a clock wouldn't be as accurate but would look nice... We'll just go in circles about that. Maybe you could experiment with making it a sundial instead of a clock/calendar? You'd like that wouldn't you? :)

markcarson · Post by **markcarson** » July 9th, 2004, 10:00 am

The following is VERY preliminary (I only spent a half an hour on it just now). Lots of issues, colors, shapes, no shadow, the bottom wing is too big, blah blah blah.

The question is, does the metaphor work or not? And before anyone cries rip-off, yes, of course it draws on elements of both Firefox and Thunderbird - that's intentional and its meant to tie back to both of the other products.

Remember, let's talk about the concept, not this current execution (to start with). No point in refining the drawing if the concept doesn't work...

<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/Sunbird-9.png">

UPDATE - 0900 GMT 10-JUL-2004: Removed month name and date numbers (per Mostafah's recommendation). Trival color changes also.

FlashBanG · Post by **FlashBanG** » July 9th, 2004, 10:18 am

Okay, so we're talking simply about the concept. By that, i'm basing my comments on simply the outline and the objects in the picture, not the colors, shapes, textures, etc.

First of all, let me say I dont like the general posture of the bird.. It looks like it's trying to peck a hole through the calendar.. Personally, i much rather like the imagery of the bird either carrying the calendar/clock on top of it.

Secondly, although i understand where you guys are coming from, i still prefer a clock in the logo. The major advantage of this is that at smaller resolutions such as icons, you can recognize a clock and it's handles, whereas the calendar seems like simply a piece of paper.

If we're insistent on using a calendar though, How about an abstract calendar without dates or anything on it? Something like Mark's first draft of the logo? (This is still one of my favorites :P )

I dunno about the sundial thing.. Although it would be more scalable than a calendar, i'm not sure many users would immediately recognize it for what it is (or maybe it's just my ignorance :P ). No harm in trying though.

Finally, i still think that the clock on top of the bird image has a lot of promise, and to date, is my personal favorite. :-)

suslik · Post by **suslik** » July 9th, 2004, 10:51 am

MarkCarson wrote:Remember, let's talk about the concept, not this current execution (to start with). No point in refining the drawing if the concept doesn't work...

<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/Sunbird-9.png">

I like this bird a lot, the "story" is not entirely there, but the "cuteness" is creeping in.

This logo also shows the limitations of what you can do with calendar - not much. It seems if you try giving it the roundness/fullness/volume of the envelope in TB you might go away from the need of rotating it that much. Also, instead of rotation of calendar on z axis (towards), i wonder if it would look better as if the calendar points at 2 o'clock.
That's an excellent base for 3d looking (flowing) bird, imho 3d calendar is an overkill.

I would second FlashBanG's idea about the level of detail on cal.

If we're insistent on using a calendar though, How about an abstract calendar without dates or anything on it? Something like Mark's first draft of the logo?

- This is certainly one of your own best.

The bonus: it may look very good at 16x16 - distinct shapes of cickle over a brick. :)

I would disagree that the logo is a rip off of FF, its very far from it in composition. (Demn, i was hunting for this angle for the bird! Demn you for finding it 1st! :) )

mostafah · Post by **mostafah** » July 9th, 2004, 11:44 am

One thing to keep in mind is that the logo should better not have any language-specific content, (e.g. month names) and if possible numbers to keep the localization groups happy.

sirchode · Post by **sirchode** » July 9th, 2004, 11:53 am

I see a lot of potential in that one, Mark. Very original idea, and you'd be the one to execute it properly. If you're going to use a calendar there, how about making the calendar seem like more of an actual object? Like maybe adding some depth to make it all seem to come to life.

I'm going to wear out the word "depth" soon, I need a thesaurus.

FlashBanG · Post by **FlashBanG** » July 9th, 2004, 12:56 pm

sirchode wrote:I'm going to wear out the word "depth" soon, I need a thesaurus.

SHAZAM!

http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=depth

\:D/

Sorry :P I thought a little humor would do this thread some good.

markcarson · Post by **markcarson** » July 9th, 2004, 1:09 pm

Yes, the logo needs more SHAZAM! (big grin)

Chris Cook · Post by **Chris Cook** » July 9th, 2004, 1:45 pm

MarkCarson wrote:The question is, does the metaphor work or not? And before anyone cries rip-off, yes, of course it draws on elements of both Firefox and Thunderbird - that's intentional and its meant to tie back to both of the other products.

The pose of the bird doesn't really work for me. Nor does the calendar. I prefer the clock for simple stylistic purposes. Never mind how appropriate it is, the globe in the FF logo is much less "meaningful."

The first logo you did with the clock had the bird's wings encircling the clock. I think this emphasizes the clock too much. A similar pose with the bird obscuring the clock more might be better. Also you may want think outside the box. The other logos are circular but I don't think it is necessary to follow that pattern exactly.

I found this webpage that has pictures of different kinds of real sunbirds. It is apparent that they come in many colors and almost any color combination used would work.

For color differentiation, FF uses orange and blue and TB uses blue and beige. Therefore, I think any combination of the following colors would set the logo apart: yellow, red, green, or purple. I think using a color combination for the bird (maybe yellow and green) wouldn't be a bad thing. The yellow and red will blend towards orange at lower scales which may be similar to the FF icon. This photo reminds me of a sun with wings for what it's worth.

suslik · Post by **suslik** » July 9th, 2004, 6:09 pm

Chris Cook wrote:
I found this webpage that has pictures of different kinds of real sunbirds. It is apparent that they come in many colors and almost any color combination used would work.

For color differentiation, FF uses orange and blue and TB uses blue and beige. Therefore, I think any combination of the following colors would set the logo apart: yellow, red, green, or purple. I think using a color combination for the bird (maybe yellow and green) wouldn't be a bad thing. The yellow and red will blend towards orange at lower scales which may be similar to the FF icon. This photo reminds me of a sun with wings for what it's worth.

Mark also posted some photos/links, as did I. Yet it seems it is hard to actually draw from the sunbird likeness. Imho, cept for the beak and some colors, the bird is fairly unattractive and uninspiring. (short, stumpy body, no neck) So i went more for a swan/goose look (with sunbird beak), Mark seemed to favor eagle likeness. JeffHot also went in mixed direction.

It seems it is easier to follow a mythical image of the sunbird :) I was amazed at the ease with Mark made the last bird look almost like sunbird, but still attractive.

markcarson · Post by **markcarson** » July 10th, 2004, 4:54 am

Still thinking inside the (circular) box for the moment :-)

Again, a very preliminary idea. As you can see, shading has not even been started, detail missing, etc. I wanted to see if a curved (concave) calendar might look better. Also more development of the idea of a more "realistic" sunbird encircling the calendar.

Try as I might the bird with calendar always looked like crap at 16x16. Then it hit me, take the calendar out at very small sizes. The remaining image is more recognizable with just the crescent bird and the cool thing (IMHO) is that the bird alone forms the letter "C" for Calendar (for those of us who speak english anyway). Sort of a mneumonic icon as a bonus! I did not render all sizes both with and without the calendar, but you should get the idea. Maybe the bird alone at all sizes might work, but then I wonder if the "inside" of the crescent would look too empty, especially compared to the Fx and Tb logos.

<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/SunBird-12-200x200.png"> 200x200
<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/SunBird-12-48x48.png"> 48x48
<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/SunBird-12-32x32.png"> 32x32
<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/SunBird-12-32.png"> 32x32 (bird only)
<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/SunBird-12-24x24.png"> 24x24
<img src="http://markcarson.com/images/SunBird-12-16.png"> 16x16 (bird only)

Lazlo Woodbine · Post by **Lazlo Woodbine** » July 10th, 2004, 6:42 am

Looking good!

My only comment is that the bird is too 'skinny'. I think the proportion of bird to calendar isn't quite right yet. This becomes particularly noticeable for the small bird only icons. There's too much white space. I think the bird needs to come more 'forward and around' the calendar.

FlashBanG · Post by **FlashBanG** » July 10th, 2004, 9:49 am

I like this one better than the older logo. The visual is slightly better.

2 Things i have issues with ATM (minus the color/texture, which mark mentioned he hasnt finished with yet)

1) The calendar's top doesnt make it look that way, the middle looks okay, but perhaps adding a couple of rings to the top may help?

2) The wings of the bird seem to be overflowing.. it seems almost as if the bird has 4 wings instead of 2.

I think that's it :-)

Keep up the good work!