My Firefox experiment

[DynaBMan]

Let me start by saying that I am not trying to bash Firefox. I am not trying to "sell" Opera. I am just trying to bring up what I feel like is a large problem.

This seems like a good place to tell my experience with Firefox and extensions. I started playing around with Firefox because I was already using Thunderbird at work. I liked some things about Firefox,especially the ability to open a bookmark in a new tab by middle-click. However, I found myself with 20+ extensions installed to try to get what Opera does right out of the box. Hide/show menubar with a keyboard shortcut, sidebar switch, edit context menu, mouse gestures, smooth scrolling, and the list goes on and on and on. The browser itself seems to work just fine by itself, but I felt like it was slowing down as I installed more and more extensions. I actually forced myself to use only Firefox for about two weeks and tried to convince myself it was working, but then one day, a couple of my extensions announced that there was an update for themselves, so I updated. After the update, one of the extensions was causing a conflict with another extension, causing my menubar to show every time I opened the browser. Sure, I could hide it with a keystroke, but in Opera, I tell it to hide and it hides until I tell it to show itself again. I spent the better part of a day going to different forums dealing with the two extensions and finally decided it wasn't worth the trouble. I fired Opera back up, M2 included, and wondered why I had tried this experiment in the first place. I am not trying to bash Firefox but I think the extensions and the problem of keeping them updated and working nice with each other is going to stand in the way of a lot of users. I know it is standing in my way of ever using Firefox full time.

[Knossos (TNC)]

Please read the entire post, and please don't flame this guy. I followed this guy all the way from Opera forums. Every time someone flames, my monitor is set on fire. Please, think of my monitor.

[JaredM]

Thanks.

[campcove]

It is unfortunate that some extensions conflict with other extensions (or are just badly written and cause trouble even if they are the only extension in). There are attempts to do some testing of extensions before putting them on the official extension website, but of course cross testing with every other extension would be a huge project.

So, you are going to have to be more careful about which extensions you install, and pick ones that are written better, and do the cross compatibility testing yourself. If you aren't able to do that, then you'll have to live with the browser with less extensions, maybe ones that are well known for being written well and recommended.

Still, if you had started off with firefox and gotten used to it and then started to use opera, if you wanted to make something work the way it does in firefox, you WOULD NOT have the option of installing extensions to make it the way you like it. You would have no choices at all. With firefox, you have the choice of running it in its bare, very thoroughly tested form, or adding extensions until you make trouble for yourself, and when you get in trouble removing them.

So, do you expect somebody to tell you a full list of every extension that does something bad with another one? Or maybe you would like each extension to go through a lot more testing? Maybe you want the default settings to work more like opera- if that is it, I suspect that in most cases there will be people opposing you and saying they like the firefox way better.

If you are don't have time to install extensions one by one and remove them if they make trouble, then use the browser as-is.

What kind of other solution do you think there could possibly be to your complaint?

[Rattlesnake]

If you think it is problematic with extensions, I think you should stick with Opera. There are advantages and disadvantages with every "consept", and both Opera and FF have their advantages and disadvantages.

[dgrimm1]

I mean this in all seriousness -- If you want a browser "just like Opera", just use Opera. Firefox is designed for a mass market, and as such does not have a lot of "power features" out of the box.

However, the extension system does allow you to add key pieces of functionallity you want, but using a large number of extensions is asking for problems (unless you like to constantly tweak things). One solution is to use some of the "combined" extensions where the developers themselves have combined the code into a single package, and thus much less likely to cause problems. A couple good examples are Tab Mix and MR Tech's local Install.

Bottom line, you will never get the wide range of functionallity Opera provides in the Firefox base package, and adding every feature from Opera, while it may be possible through extensions, is not advisable. So use Opera if you really like a wide range of Opera's features, use Firefox if you prefer, they are two different programs designed to meet differnet users.

[Vectorspace]

The fact that you need extensions is, in part, by design. The intention was for Firefox to be a slim, lean browser with only the basic features. You then use extensions to build the browser you want, to order. That is the main advantage and one of the main reasons I use Firefox.
Bloat doesn't necessarily mean speed, and is relative. To someone who doesn't want or need much in the way of extra features, Opera would seem bloated or over-complicated to them. Simplicity for the novice user is another advantage.

But nothing is without disadvantage.

I know people with 50+ extensions who don't experience slowdowns or conflicts. But because extensions are 3rd party, conflicts are possible. Disadvantage.
A person migrating from a feature-rich browser like Opera will naturally want to customise Firefox with the features they miss. This can require a lot of extensions and a lot of work to find them, and invites conflict if they need 2 similar (and potentially overlapping) extensions to get the features they want. Disadvantage.

I'm sure there are more of both, but thats all I can think of right now.

It's unfortunate that in your case you were hit with both disadvantages. But before you go back to Opera to stay, might I suggest that you look at what extensions are on offer, for features that you would really like that Opera can't do. Perhaps you'll find something good enough that makes leaving some Opera features behind worth it.

If in the end, you find you prefer Opera, then that is your choice. Nothing is perfect for everybody, Firefox included.
____

This is a note to anyone who might reply to this topic - No flames. If you can't be civil then don't reply at all.

[DynaBMan]

It is unfortunate that some extensions conflict with other extensions (or are just badly written and cause trouble even if they are the only extension in). There are attempts to do some testing of extensions before putting them on the official extension website, but of course cross testing with every other extension would be a huge project.

So, you are going to have to be more careful about which extensions you install, and pick ones that are written better, and do the cross compatibility testing yourself. If you aren't able to do that, then you'll have to live with the browser with less extensions, maybe ones that are well known for being written well and recommended.

I have tried to be pretty careful about which extensions I install. The two extensions that I was talking about that don't seem to play nice with each other are two that are mentioned quite a bit in the forums and I hesitate to mention them because I do not want to seem like I am bashing the authors. I appreciate the work they have put into the extensions and do not intend to put them down at all. I do think that there is work needed to try to prevent as many extension conflicts as possible. I really feel like that a lot of people are put off by these conflicts because they cause problems that users do not know how to deal with, much less want to deal with.

Still, if you had started off with firefox and gotten used to it and then started to use opera, if you wanted to make something work the way it does in firefox, you WOULD NOT have the option of installing extensions to make it the way you like it. You would have no choices at all. With firefox, you have the choice of running it in its bare, very thoroughly tested form, or adding extensions until you make trouble for yourself, and when you get in trouble removing them.

So, do you expect somebody to tell you a full list of every extension that does something bad with another one? Or maybe you would like each extension to go through a lot more testing? Maybe you want the default settings to work more like opera- if that is it, I suspect that in most cases there will be people opposing you and saying they like the firefox way better.

If you are don't have time to install extensions one by one and remove them if they make trouble, then use the browser as-is.

What kind of other solution do you think there could possibly be to your complaint?

I do not mind researching extensions at all. I have done just that and have read countless posts about things I can and can not do with Firefox and Thunderbird for that matter. I did the same when I started using Opera a couple of years back. Again, I do not intend for this to be a bash against Firefox at all. As far as a solution to my complaint, I really don't know if there is one. I have always liked Opera and maybe I am trying to hard to make Firefox act like Opera. Maybe that is part of my problem. They are two different sets of code, two different programs, designed to things a different way.

[DynaBMan]

The fact that you need extensions is, in part, by design. The intention was for Firefox to be a slim, lean browser with only the basic features. You then use extensions to build the browser you want, to order. That is the main advantage and one of the main reasons I use Firefox.
Bloat doesn't necessarily mean speed, and is relative. To someone who doesn't want or need much in the way of extra features, Opera would seem bloated or over-complicated to them. Simplicity for the novice user is another advantage.

But nothing is without disadvantage.

I know people with 50+ extensions who don't experience slowdowns or conflicts. But because extensions are 3rd party, conflicts are possible. Disadvantage.
A person migrating from a feature-rich browser like Opera will naturally want to customise Firefox with the features they miss. This can require a lot of extensions and a lot of work to find them, and invites conflict if they need 2 similar (and potentially overlapping) extensions to get the features they want. Disadvantage.

I'm sure there are more of both, but thats all I can think of right now.

It's unfortunate that in your case you were hit with both disadvantages. But before you go back to Opera to stay, might I suggest that you look at what extensions are on offer, for features that you would really like that Opera can't do. Perhaps you'll find something good enough that makes leaving some Opera features behind worth it.

If in the end, you find you prefer Opera, then that is your choice. Nothing is perfect for everybody, Firefox included.
____

This is a note to anyone who might reply to this topic - No flames. If you can't be civil then don't reply at all.

I think you said it better than me, Vectorspace. I will look around at more extensions and who knows what I will decide. One thing for sure, I agree with your statement. Nothing is perfect for everybody, Opera and Firefox included.

[Frank Lion]

DynaBMan, do these 2 extensions actually have names? ... and maybe the names of all the other ones that you claim were needed.

No need to be evasive here, these are not the Opera forums with the ever eager haavard looking over your shoulder.

@Knossos (TNC) so, you're the shadow, are you?

[Vectorspace]

The two extensions that I was talking about that don't seem to play nice with each other are two that are mentioned quite a bit in the forums and I hesitate to mention them because I do not want to seem like I am bashing the authors.

If extensions conflict, they conflict. It happens - we know it won;t be bashing them. Discussing problems is the only way resolutions come about. If it is a known issue there may be a solution, but you'll never know unless you ask. If its not a known conflict, the authors might fix it if they become aware of it.

P.S. have a look at the Greasemonkey extension...

[DynaBMan]

DynaBMan, do these 2 extensions actually have names? ... and maybe the names of all the other ones that you claim were needed.

No need to be evasive here, these are not the Opera forums with the ever eager haavard looking over your shoulder.

@Knossos (TNC) so, you're the shadow, are you?

Now, now, Frank Lion. Let's not discuss the Opera forums, agreed? I wasn't trying to be evasive, I just do not want the authors to think I do not appreciate their work because that is not the case and I certainly realize that it would be virtually impossible to cross test with every extension. I have posted in their forums and I believe they are working on a solution. The two extensions are MenuX and All-In-One-Sidebar (AIOS). AIOS caused a conflict with MenuX with the last update that caused the menubar to show everytime I started the browser.

[Vectorspace]

Sometimes, if you auto-update an extension, it does not update properly and can do unexpected things. Try uninstalling and reinstalling those two extensions, and see what happens.

[DynaBMan]

Sometimes, if you auto-update an extension, it does not update properly and can do unexpected things. Try uninstalling and reinstalling those two extensions, and see what happens.

I have already tried that, Vectorspace, and that didn't fix the problem either. As I said, the author of AIOS knows about it and is trying to come up with a solution.

[the-edmeister]

but then one day, a couple of my extensions announced that there was an update for themselves, so I updated.

If your installation works the way you want, why 'update' an extension merely an update is available?
When you become aware that an update for an extension is released, do some research about exactly what the update entails - do you need or even want the new features; many times the change is very minor and something you wouldn't even see = added language localizations, for instance.
I turn off the update notification for extensions so that I am not even tempted to "tamper with success".

Also - contrary to comments that less is more and to use extensions that contain a lot of features in one extension:
To certain extent that may be true, but when you mix a few of these "lots of features" extensions together is where you can run into problems.
IMHO, I would rather install 10 extensions that do one thing and do it well, than install one extension that does 10 things.

Regarding the two extensions mentioned:
I have never used All-in-one Gestures. MenuX on the otherhand I have 'written-off' in my own mind on at least a half-a-dozen occassions as being too complicated and prone to user-created problems! I have kept going back to it to see what the improvements have been only because of problems with Compact Menu not having received periodic updates during the 'run of 1.0.x versions'.

Ed