RFE filed - for anyone who's ever given FF tech support

RenegadeX · Post by **RenegadeX** » January 9th, 2006, 9:24 am

Imagine all the typing this would save you when trying to explain how to locate the Profile folder(s):
[url=https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=322823]Bug# 322823,
"Installer should add shortcut link to (root) Profile directory in Firefox's Start Menu program folder"[/url]
Opened: 2006-01-09, Status: NEW

:mrgreen:

RenegadeX · Post by **RenegadeX** » January 9th, 2006, 9:33 am

ha - it got marked 'WONTFIX' in less than 2 minutes after being filed!
quote: "Absolutely no way. Profiles should not be exposed to end users."

That's bogus.

Unarmed · Post by **Unarmed** » January 9th, 2006, 10:41 am

I think adding the full profile path to something like the suggestion in <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=320141" title="Bug 320141 - Add about:info feature (to help troubleshooting)">bug 320141</a> stands a better chance of happening.

JaredM · Post by **JaredM** » January 9th, 2006, 11:15 am

Users shouldn't be mucking around in the profile unless they know what they are doing or instructed to, there's a reason that Application Data is hidden in the documents and settings folder by default.

RenegadeX · Post by **RenegadeX** » January 9th, 2006, 11:49 am

^^ That's also an excellent suggestion.
Add the current Profile path at the top, make it linkable, and it's even better.

jinexile wrote:Users shouldn't be mucking around in the profile unless they know what they are doing or instructed to, there's a reason that Application Data is hidden in the documents and settings folder by default.

Just because a link is provided in the Firefox folder and a user now knows where the Profile folder is kept doesn't mean that catastophe is sure to follow (which I can only assume is what is feared if a user is 'exposed' to it). Should the user even decide to follow the link (and who knows - he may never even have looked in the Firefox Programs Folder before if a Quicklaunch icon was installed), all he'll find is files and folders, same as any other. Why don't we just install Fireofox into the AppData folder, and for good measure make it hidden - in case an end user should ever discover it and start changing stuff??

Newsflash: deleting or changing *any* files or directories on a computer when you don't know what you're doing has serious potential to lead to programs not working properly. In the worst case scenario - the Profile is screwed up due to meddling - they delete that Profile and create a new one.

Anyhow, it's the "don't expose the end user to the Profile" attitude is also bogus because Firefox is ALL about customizability, and this brings about the following important consideration:

- If the base app does not currently facilitate (within the user interface) a way for the user to undo or restore something that was allowed to be changed or added, or doesn't provide a way to change configurable 'customizing' settings, then developers should include a way to do in the base app instead of relying on an extension to take care of the issue. Until an extension is available / until a user finds out about it and has it installed (!!), users are 'forced' to root through the file structure in order to make a change.

Examples of what I mean:

Questions from 'Joe Average':

"How do I remove some searchplugins that I installed in Firefox 1.5? I looked in the c:\program files\mozilla\firefox\searcbplugins folder but don't see them. Help!!!"
Though searchplugins are able to be installed natively, they cannot be uninstalled without the addition of an extension (I trust you will know where to find it/them). Searchplugins that a user has installed are stored in the user's *Profile\searchplugins* folder, and can be deleted manually from within.
"I heard that Firefox 1.5 backs up bookmarks? Something happened today and mine all got screwed up. I spent 20 minutes looking through my files but can't find any backups. I even looked in the Bookmark Manager in Firefox and there's no 'restore backup' option - this sucks!"
The user is correct. Bookmark backups are stored in the (you guessed it) *Profile* folder and unfortunately the 'Import' menu-item in the Bookmarks Manager fails to include a 'Restore backup' that automatically points to the backup file. You know what, I'd love to help Joe out here, but he's an "end user" and he's already been exposed to the Profile folder when I helped him with that searchplugins question last week. Do you think a 2nd exposure might be lethal?
A friend at work also uses Firefox and I noticed the other day that his browser looks better than mine, even though we're using the same Theme. He just emailed me some text to put in my 'Userchrome.css' and said it'll make the toolbar & menu spacing on my system just like his. He's away on business for the week otherwise I'd ask him, but what the heck is he on about? - I looked in the Firefox directory and don't see a file with that name.
If you weren't an 'end user', I would have told you that the Userchrome.css file is located in your *Profile*'s 'chrome' directory, and that you would want to open it in a text editor, paste the text he sent you underneath the the existing entries, then (with Firefox closed) save it and restart Firefox to see your changes. But I won't. You're an end user. Sorry. What I can recommend instead is to install an extension called 'Chromedit' that provides an interface for editing that file and a couple others that help with customizing things in Firefox, but - oh, no - that won't work without editing some files because Chromedit was never updated by the author to work with Firefox 1.5. Tell you what, here's a link to Firefox 1.0.........

- Also when you consider that Internet Explorer could handle local path links (such as the path to your Firefox Profile) as it is intergrated with the Windows OS, it would be neat if Firefox could open local path links in the OS's native File Explorer. (Does anyone know if there's an existing extension that can do this?)

I'd probably still argue that the shortcut should still be included even if the above 3 or 4 concepts were taken care of, but at the very least, it proves that the better the interface, the less reason there is for a user to 1) need to even ask where the Profile is located; 2) need to go into the profile to change things manually.

(The same goes for all Mozilla apps - ex: in TB, there's no way to reorder mail/newsgroup folders without manually editing files - they're displayed in the chronological order that they were created in and not alphabetically as one would expect. This lack of design-thinking is the exact reason why someone might go into a file and start changing things hoping to correct the situation, only to end up with a broken app).

I'll take interface improvements over a Start Menu shortcut any day! :mrgreen:

Tad Ghostal · Post by **Tad Ghostal** » January 9th, 2006, 5:01 pm

It doesn't matter what you or I think, the developers have a pretty strong stance on the profile situation.

campcove · Post by **campcove** » January 9th, 2006, 9:44 pm

Regarding things that should be changed about profiles, the ability to delete files in the profile directory by clicking "delete files" should be completely removed, and no thought should ever be given to allowing it to be added back until there is a way to ensure that no files other than those on the list of files created by Firefox are deleted. Even then, deleting bookmarks.html is probably bad form.

RenegadeX · Post by **RenegadeX** » January 9th, 2006, 11:46 pm

^ huh??
it's impossible for the file system to *not* allow a user to delete files on a directory-by-directory basis. For that matter, at all. A file can be 'locked' in WinXP but if I really wanted to get rid of the sucker, I can arrange to have it deleted upon the next reboot..

sumguy231: yes, apparently.. they feel strongly about many things. Doesn't mean they're right though

campcove · Post by **campcove** » January 10th, 2006, 1:27 am

Sorry, I see that I was unclear. What I meant to say was the ability to delete files \with the Profile Manager/ should be completely removed, probably forever, but at least until the profile manager knows a list of the files Firefox may have or usually creates, like extensions.rdf, mimetypes.rdf, and UNLIKE lettertomom.doc. This would prevent much heartache.

But, since you mention it, some efforts to protect the Firefox files that don't need to be user edited from hamhanded monkeying around with would probably be a good idea. Could all non-user editable Firefox files in the program files or profile directory get the read-only flag? I'm not sure if there is or isn't a technical reason they couldn't.

RenegadeX · Post by **RenegadeX** » January 10th, 2006, 1:57 am

ah.. you meant to say "the ability to delete files in the PROFILE MANAGER DIALOG by clicking "delete files" should be completely removed...

I see now..

"How is a non-Firefox-created file like 'lettertomom.doc' finding its way into the Profile folder?", I would first ask.
Then I'd tell you that Delete means 'get rid of', not 'remove it until I change my mind and want it back' and should not be taken lightly. As long as the Delete dialog warns you about the consequences if you decide to proceed with the deletion, I'm happy. It does, so I am.

But I suppose if you have kids or other people using your computer and are worried that your Profile may be deleted without your blessings - valid concern. In that case, might I suggest an extension such as Bookmark Backup, which does a lot more than just bookmarks.
http://www.pikey.me.uk/mozilla/ (<-- it's great already, but a new version is coming soon!)

greenknight · Post by **greenknight** » January 10th, 2006, 2:21 am

Test builds of the new Bookmark Backup 0.4 are already available from Pike's website. I've been running them since Test Build 4, it's now at Test Build 7. That should be the final build, all that's holding up release right now is that all the translations aren't done.

Your bug is a dupe of this one (also marked WONTFIX): Bug 263840 - Firefox Start Menu Program Group incomplete https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=263840

RenegadeX · Post by **RenegadeX** » January 10th, 2006, 4:37 am

^ No it's not a dupe - there's not one mention in the 263840 Bug thread mentioning a link to the Profile file folder. Not one!

The only thing in common between the two threads is Mozilla developers making assumptions about you or I, our computer-expertise, and how we plan to use their browser.

Here's my thoughts on that Bug issue:
Excuse me, but who the hell decided if I, you, or 131million other Firefox would or would not want the Profile Manager in our Firefox Start Menu folder? If I don't want it, I'll either ignore it or delete it if it bothers me that much.

I made myself a Quicklaunch shortcut to the PM as I do a fair bit of testing and don't want to mess up my usual Profile. But sure, not every is going to be like me. However, for the average home user who shares their computer with other family members, why wouldn't you want to install seperate profiles, each with their own Bookmarks, each with their own Theme or layout customizations, and each with their own choice of extensions installed?

And they should at least be consistent - Thunderbird and SeaMonkey both install the Profile Manager menu items in their respective Start Menu folders! Asinine!! :crazyeyes:

Hey, I'll agree to one thing - 263840 is more ridiculous than my Bug. :eyeroll2:

greenknight · Post by **greenknight** » January 11th, 2006, 1:29 am

Your right, it's not the same, I didn't read yours carefully enough. Your bug had even less chance, they put Profiles in a hidden folder, obviously they don't want less-advanced users to be able to find it.

Your comments about 263840 are right on.

Post by **BenBasson** » January 11th, 2006, 5:00 am

RenegadeX wrote:Anyhow, it's the "don't expose the end user to the Profile" attitude is also bogus because Firefox is ALL about customizability

Nothing in this sentence is true.

Bugs with profiles should be fixed. Exposing profiles to help users fix them is not fixing the root problems. If you're tired of helping people manage profiles, encourage developers to fix the bugs that are responsible (not via bugspam).

RenegadeX wrote:Excuse me, but who the hell decided if I, you, or 131million other Firefox would or would not want the Profile Manager in our Firefox Start Menu folder? If I don't want it, I'll either ignore it or delete it if it bothers me that much.

Feel free to go and use SeaMonkey. The profile manager is not going to be exposed because it should not be required. This is what Windows user accounts are for.

RenegadeX · Post by **RenegadeX** » January 11th, 2006, 5:19 am

^ I guess the thinking with Bug 263840 is that the "Don't ask at startup" checkbox in the PM covers those who might be in a 'shared use' situation. However, the downside to leaving it unchecked (so that the PM appears every start-up) is that maybe there is 1 'prime user' who uses the computer 80% of the time (like Mom or Dad if it's also a home-office computer) and that person doesn't want to have to go through the Profile Manager every time they start Firefox.

To get around this, they could, of course, make a Start Menu/Quicklaunch/Desktop shortcut with "-p primeruser' tacked on the end, and then have another shortcut with "-p kid1" and another with "-p kid2", etc. But why not just give the user the PM menuitem and make things simple? ;-)