Apple's Safari Browser faster than Gecko-based browers?

WJTW · Post by **WJTW** » January 9th, 2003, 6:50 am

Has anyone mentioned this before?

I read the second article which 'misterjingles' posted.

I scrolled through the document, and saw a few "like Gecko", "follow closely with the way Gecko does." and other lines.

What does this mean? Are they using Gecko as a 'base' (I'm not talking about the engine.) for correctness of display?

Hmm...

WJTW

michaell522 · Post by **michaell522** » January 9th, 2003, 7:02 am

WJTW wrote:I ... saw a few "like Gecko", "follow closely with the way Gecko does." and other lines.

What does this mean? Are they using Gecko as a 'base' (I'm not talking about the engine.) for correctness of display?

the thing in the UA string is there for sites which are (stupidly) written to detect IE/Netscape4.x/Gecko. if it doesn't claim to be one of those, lots of sites won't work. choosing between those, they decided to be "like Gecko", because they aim to implement the DOM and CSS standards properly, and are therefore more like Gecko than like IE.

I wouldn't say that meant they were basing their display on Gecko particularly - they are basing it on standards. Where the standards are ambiguous, I imagine they may well choose to do the same thing Gecko does, in the same way that Gecko often chooses to do the same thing that IE does.

<a href="http://www.mozillazine.org/weblogs/hyatt/#90161490">Dave Hyatt's blog entry</a> explains...

shm · Post by **shm** » January 13th, 2003, 6:01 pm

Shadow3333 wrote:Well as a webdeveloper i can truly say that KHTML sucks major donkeyballs compared to Gecko. Gecko might not be perfect but it's getting there very fast (implementation of contenteditable in 1.3a!!! and XML support)

KHTML has nothing of this

Actually, KHTML does have XML support, Apple just hasn't ported the equivalent Qt widgets from Konq yet. (according to David Hyatt)

shm · Post by **shm** » January 13th, 2003, 6:17 pm

DeepFreeze3 wrote:
Actually, I'm pissed off because Apple (according to posts I've seen here) has ripped off (among other things) the UI from Phoenix, put it in their Safari browser and are claiming that it's original to the minds from Apple Computer's tech department. I'm also pissed about that phony baloney demostration Jobs did at MacWorld. Come on. That so-called Safari demostration didn't reflect a computer in a real world situation. It was stripped of everything that would've naturally slowed it down. There is no way in hell that browser would loaded that fast if the stuff all of us have (i.e. firewall, anti-virus & other necessary protective software) was installed & running on that iMac. I also hate how Jobs shoots his mouth off & lies about how great his products are. Did he tell anybody there about Netscape 7.01's Quick Launch feature, and how it makes it load REALLY fast? Nope!! And why would he? If that had been thrown into his testing mix, I doubt Safari would've looked as good.

Well, Safari does actually load as fast as the MacWorld demonstartions showed (and I have a pretty slow Mac.. a ibook g3 500)... If you have ever tried Mozilla-based browsers on OSX, you'd know that almost all of them load pretty slow, especially on older Macs. Chimera loads the fastest out all the Mozilla-based browsers on my ibook, but it's still a lot slower than Safari. In terms of rendering speed,

However, I will stick with Chimera.. it has tabs and I'm used to tabs

If any webcore-based browser comes out with tabs, i'll likely switch to that.. omniweb has already said that omniweb 5.0 will be based on webcore. there will probably dozens of others, especially if apple releases full public apis for webcore.

nicubunu · Post by **nicubunu** » January 14th, 2003, 12:15 am

shm wrote:Well, Safari does actually load as fast as the MacWorld demonstartions showed (and I have a pretty slow Mac.. a ibook g3 500)...

Can someone enlighten me ? (I don't have acces to an Mac, they are extremely rare here, so my question is naive)

g3 500 MHz is pretty slow for Mozilla but P3 (or Athlon) 500 MHz on PC is flawless. I know that megahertz myth is false, then should not be the other whay ? What is wrong ?

greg · Post by **greg** » January 14th, 2003, 10:07 am

I think KHTML isn't bad at all. It is a very nice and fast rendering engine, and from my experiences JavaScript/DOM works quite well, and much faster than in Mozilla.

The only bad thing about KHTML is the dependence on KDE(kdelibs) and QT, of course..
That might get better, since Apple had to separate it form QT and kdelibs(apparently they are using their own libraries with mostly similar api)

I can't complain about the CSS support either.. displays nearly all things which mozilla does.
also complexspiral and the like(but css menus not, at least with 3.0.5)

DeepFreeze3 · Post by **DeepFreeze3** » January 14th, 2003, 6:49 pm

thumperward wrote:
DeepFreeze3 wrote:It'll probably crawl.

Given such well-researched evidence, how could anyone argue with such a well thought-out post? Especially seeing that running Mozilla in conjunction with firewall software has been shown by independent investigation not to slow it down one iota.

- Chris

Every message you've posted has been anti-Mozilla & pro-Apple. Funny, considering that the label under your username is ... Mozilla Aficionado? YEAH, RIGHT!! :lol:

Who's the "troll" now? You wouldn't happen to be working for them, would you? If you're not, you should be. You'd make one hell of a propoganda meister.

If your pal Stevie wants to create a browser for his "nobody-but-rich-people-can-afford-them" Apple computers, or say his Safari browser is the next best thing since holes were put in Swiss cheese, I could care less. The minute, though, he starts ripping off from the Mozilla community, spreading lies about how much beter his Safari browser is, creating bogus charts, posting lies on Apple's web site & showing everybody a rigged demostration at MacWorld to make himself and his product look good, then that's a different story. If it's SO much better, then he should drop those proprietary walls, make it Windows & Linux OS compatible and let the public decide. If not, then he should keep his damn mouth shut.

unruly · Post by **unruly** » January 14th, 2003, 7:10 pm

DeepFreeze3 wrote:If your pal Stevie wants to create a browser for his "nobody-but-rich-people-can-afford-them" Apple computers, or say his Safari browser is the next best thing since holes were put in Swiss cheese, I could care less. The minute, though, he starts ripping off from the Mozilla community, spreading lies about how much beter his Safari browser is, creating bogus charts, posting lies on Apple's web site & showing everybody a rigged demostration at MacWorld to make himself and his product look good, then that's a different story. If it's SO much better, then he should drop those proprietary walls, make it Windows & Linux OS compatible and let the public decide. If not, then he should keep his damn mouth shut.

I told myself I wasn't going to post in one of these pointles "OMG APPLE SUX GEKO ROXLOLOLOL" threads. But your ingenious comment has to be attended to.

First off, horray for marketing, smarty. It's how our capitalist market works. One company claims it does it better faster and with more panache than the last guy, and tries to make a (symbolic in this case) buck. I gather you're new to america.

No where on apple's site does it claim that they are better than Gecko, NO WHERE. They claim they're smaller than another OSS browser. Please, don't assume they're targeting you, or gecko (which, I, despite this post, still enjoy immensely, and use it all the time for testing web page designs).

Also, webcore is OSS, go download the gzip and poke around in it yourself if you're so inclined. Yes, let the people decide, it's what they do every day, and every day IE continues to be in the lead. Again, don't assume that it's not OSS, especially when it comes from GPL'ed code.

It's not apple's responsablity to make it for anything other than their own OS. If you've got the skills, then port it to windows (linux need not apply, as all they have to do is remerge the KHTML changes from apple) and play around with it.

Is KHTML the end all, be all of browsers? No. Was there ever a claim that it was? No.

I still don't see what bug has gotten up the mozillazine ... community's ... ass that they need to continually rag on a browser that doesn't even use the same engine, is targeted for a platform that most of them don't use, nor care about most of the time.

Edit: Speeeelink

bzbarsky · Post by **bzbarsky** » January 14th, 2003, 7:16 pm

unruly wrote:I still don't see what bug has gotten up the mozillazine ... community's ... ass

I call it the "Slashdot-troll-shoot-off-at-the-mouth-about-things-you-know-shit-about" bug....

http://www.mozillazine.org/forums/viewt ... 0260#30260 pretty much summarizes my views on the discourse taking place on these discussion boards.

Funny how no one who actually works on the Mozilla code has been particularly critical of Apple's decision... maybe there's a reason for that, huh?

unruly · Post by **unruly** » January 14th, 2003, 7:21 pm

bzbarsky wrote:Funny how no one who actually works on the Mozilla code has been particularly critical of Apple's decision... maybe there's a reason for that, huh?

perhaps it's because they're too busy working on making mozilla a better browser, to come and post inflammatory comments about a competitor. Which would make them look like a zealot and likely earn them some measure of email flame-age.

just a thought.

bzbarsky · Post by **bzbarsky** » January 14th, 2003, 7:23 pm

unruly wrote:perhaps it's because they're too busy working on making mozilla a better browser, to come and post inflammatory comments about a competitor.

The thought had crossed my mind. ;) Not to mention that some of the people working on said competitor (eg hyatt) are also taking time to keep working on Gecko....

unruly · Post by **unruly** » January 14th, 2003, 7:25 pm

bzbarsky wrote:
unruly wrote:perhaps it's because they're too busy working on making mozilla a better browser, to come and post inflammatory comments about a competitor.
The thought had crossed my mind. Not to mention that some of the people working on said competitor (eg hyatt) are also taking time to keep working on Gecko....

what a novel idea, cooperation is.

DeepFreeze3 · Post by **DeepFreeze3** » January 16th, 2003, 3:50 pm

unruly wrote:
No where on apple's site does it claim that they are better than Gecko

Yeah, now. For the first couple of days, though, they had this blurb on their web site about (among other things) how much better their Konqueor-based browser was SO much better than "a well-known, popular, open-sourced browser project", which was seen by a lot of people here as a blatent cheap shot fired at the Mozilla community. But I guess they have spies that check out what goes on in here, because they took it off their web site the minute we started talking about it. I guess that was just "coincidence?" ;-)

Safari: A house of cards that's ready to be blown down. ;-)

DeepFreeze3 · Post by **DeepFreeze3** » January 16th, 2003, 4:02 pm

bzbarsky wrote:
unruly wrote:I still don't see what bug has gotten up the mozillazine ... community's ... ass
I call it the "Slashdot-troll-shoot-off-at-the-mouth-about-things-you-know-shit-about" bug....

http://www.mozillazine.org/forums/viewt ... 0260#30260 pretty much summarizes my views on the discourse taking place on these discussion boards.

Funny how no one who actually works on the Mozilla code has been particularly critical of Apple's decision... maybe there's a reason for that, huh?

Check out MozillaZine's news archive. You'll find lots of people responsible for working on Mozilla's code taking a piece out of Steve Jobs over his Safari claims. ;-)

Note to Chris Nelson: I'M NOT WORTHY!! I'M NOT WORTHY!! ;-)

(That guy is ... THE MAN!!) :-)

jgraham · Post by **jgraham** » January 16th, 2003, 4:28 pm

DeepFreeze3 wrote: But I guess they have spies that check out what goes on in here, because they took it off their web site the minute we started talking about it. I guess that was just "coincidence?"

I believe that David Hyatt specifically asked them to remove it. Even if I am misremembering this (and *someone* specifically asked them to remove it), could you please, please stop trolling here. You are managing to keep this thread alive on your own. I don't know what you dislike about apple or Safari, but please take it to alt.i.hate.apple or something. As far as i can tell, your opinions don't agree with those of any Mozilla developers, or with most members of the wider Mozilla community. What Apple put on their website is irrelevant. Somewhere on the Microsoft website it probably says that a) Internet Explorer is the best browser ever created and b) Open source software is all evil. It's called *marketing*, and is not based on the actual qualities that a product has, but on trying to encourage use of that product. You'll also find that products are demoed to their strengths and not their weaknesses. The best advice I can offer is to try and ignore marketing, not get upset about it.

Now please, please let this thread, and the other Safari related thread, die.

Apple's Safari Browser faster than Gecko-based browers?

Re: Apple's Safari Browser faster than Gecko-based browers?

The bug

Re: The bug

Re: The bug

Re: The bug

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