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Open Source goes Commercial?

Discussion of general topics about Mozilla Firefox
larrybpsu
 
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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 9:55 pm

As Ben's sticky about the artwork says:
bengoodger wrote:From what I understand, this does not preclude you from using Firefox artwork if you wish to link to mozilla.org, we're just trying to prevent people from identify themselves AS us, or create builds that masquerade as official builds.

The Mozilla Foundation will be using this new iconography to differentiate official builds from third party ones, so that end users always know that they are using a bona fide Mozilla build when they see the Firefox logo. As a result, permission to use these graphics in custom builds is explicitly NOT granted automatically

Ben,

Where's this going? All the good of the 'builders' out there, and you strip away the artwork because it's trademarked? This, in a sense, alieniates all the builders, because they're NOT 'official' builds? They weren't offical in the first sense. Will more and more of the CVS repository become trademarked and removed from circulation? Didn't a company by the name of Netscape do that in the past?

This looks like the beginning of a very slippery slope, over names and graphics?

Yes, there are probably LOTS of legal reasons (because we live in a 'sick' world) but it just disheartens me so to see all the good work boil down to legal issues or battles. Something about this just doesn't feel right.

In closing, I'm not posting to argue about all the licensing issues. They're there for a reason. :(

oSiRiS_Brad
 
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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 10:04 pm

I'm sure some people will come about, create new artwork, make an organization, and then have their own "official" builds. Like Netscape/Mozilla in the past. Or something. And then it will be open source again.
Last edited by oSiRiS_Brad on February 9th, 2004, 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Spewey
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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 10:08 pm

Don't mess with the artwork, it's holy.

intatia
 
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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 10:27 pm

Haha, nice avatar!

David James

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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 10:35 pm

This is all fine and good for Windows (and probably Mac) builds since you can only get them from mozilla.org. But what of Linux distributions like Debian, Red Hat and Suse? My interpretation of this is that since those aren't stictly "official" Mozilla builds the FF icon can't be used. Are we sure this is what we want considering that in time the great bulk of copies of Firefox in Linux will be from the distributors?
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T.K.

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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 10:50 pm

Long time lurker, first time poster

This, quite honestly, is the first thing that has given me pause in my whole experience with Firebird/Firefox. I have been promoting the browser to my wife and friends/family, but this development seems.. icky.

The software is open source, but not open build?

pinku

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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 10:59 pm

So is this the reason why I dont have icon on my title bar in Linux???
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not_anybody

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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 11:31 pm

T.K. wrote:Long time lurker, first time poster

This, quite honestly, is the first thing that has given me pause in my whole experience with Firebird/Firefox. I have been promoting the browser to my wife and friends/family, but this development seems.. icky.

The software is open source, but not open build?


Oooh! A Ltl ftp!

Yeah, I really like the new artwork for the Fox. Its almost adorable. but this isn't really a big deal yet I don't think. I guess it is a good way to identify the third party builds...

But hey, its not like the actual code isn't open source.

jedbro

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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 11:34 pm

larrybpsu wrote:Will more and more of the CVS repository become trademarked and removed from circulation?

More and more?
Don't go overboard, we are talking about a FEW images here, not the theme, more like the about: screen.


oSiRiS_Brad wrote:I'm sure some people will come about, create new artwork, make an organization, and then have their own "official" builds. Like Netscape/Mozilla in the past. Or something. And then it will be open source again.

What?

I don't think you understand where this is going.
Sure, you might not like it. Tough.

The whole point of this is BRANDING!!!!

Mozilla.org wants to create a name for it'self and promote Firefox to the masses. You can't do this if you have unoficial builds that look just like official ones floating around the net.

Why is this good?
*) Because mozilla.org can't garentee the quality of an unoficial build like they can their own releases.
How is a user supposed to know the difference of such builds when downloading from download.com or betanews.com?

This "artwork trademark" is the answer.

Think about linux. Each and every distrubution has a name for itself, I think this is the route Mozilla.org wants to go.

This isn't about "anti-opensource", we are talking about diferenciating between Official builds and non-oficial builds.
With the growth of firebird users, the potencial of "home builds" being dangerous/filled with spyware/containg a back door/virus/etc increases. This is an honest way of trying to prevent that, or atleast making it harder.


Think about it a bit before responding.

bengoodger

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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 11:44 pm

You hit the nail on the head jed.

Linux is an interesting point. While there are many linux distributions, would I be allowed to create a new distribution and call it RedHat Linux? Perhaps even based on the real RHL but with changes of my own devising. According to the RedHat legal page, the name "Red Hat" and associated imagery are trademarks of Red Hat, so if I were to do this Red Hat could justifiably come after me.

Why would they do this? It's all open source right?

Please. Remember.

1- Open Source is Open SOURCE.
2- Mozilla makes its source available. It then creates an end user distribution based on this source with additional graphics included (just like Netscape did.... you were never given the rights to the Netscape art in Netscape releases either).

There is nothing hokey here. Mozilla is trying to protect itself from certain contingencies by creating policies that are no different from any other organization that pushes things out for others to use. I don't want to say any more on this issue since IANAL.

oSiRiS_Brad
 
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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 11:47 pm

Except... do we really want distros of Firefox?

The only potential for unofficial builds that I think there might be is optimizations, and these are almost always marked in some way. Besides, if a user wants a copy of MOZILLA firefox, the user will head to MOZILLA.org. You don't see people looking for Windows Updates at download.com, now do you?

I think the whole "3rd party build" thing is totally overplayed; lets face it, the only potential for confused users in on windows or maybe OSX. And I really doubt theres going to be anything other than obscure processor optomized builds, ever. Why? There's no need for distros or modification: firefox can be changed with extensions and themes, and the newer installers will have bundled extension stuff.

The only thing this artwork nonsense does is frustrate ME, because I have a black background on my website and want to make MY OWN button. But the logo is CLOSED SOURCE.

Spewey
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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 11:51 pm

Dumb. You're being dumb.

Anyone can use the source + not everyone can use the trademark art = you crying like a baby.

Why? I don't know.

bengoodger

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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 11:54 pm

oSiRiS_Brad wrote:The only thing this artwork nonsense does is frustrate ME, because I have a black background on my website and want to make MY OWN button. But the logo is CLOSED SOURCE.


If you want to do that, I don't think you're prevented from doing so, just like if you were to create a page talking about how you loved Red Hat Linux with the Red Hat on a different background, Red Hat would probably not sue you. Again, IANAL. I've asked Mitchell Baker to comment some more on this issue.

oSiRiS_Brad
 
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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 11:56 pm

All I want is a hi res source version that I can use to make buttons.
Last edited by oSiRiS_Brad on February 9th, 2004, 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bengoodger

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Post Posted February 9th, 2004, 11:57 pm

oSiRiS_Brad wrote:The only thing this artwork nonsense does is frustrate ME, because I have a black background on my website and want to make MY OWN button. But the logo is CLOSED SOURCE.


If you want to do that, I don't think you're prevented from doing so, just like if you were to create a page talking about how you loved Red Hat Linux with the Red Hat on a different background, Red Hat would probably not sue you. Again, IANAL. I've asked Mitchell Baker to comment some more on this issue.

If anyone replies to this with "But the graphics are still not OPEN SOURCE" then I will request you please remove any software from your computer that contain trademarked graphics with restrictions, such as Red Hat Linux, and especially Microsoft Windows or MacOS X.

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