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Automatically delete messages from server when I MOVE them?

User Help for Seamonkey and Mozilla Suite
calamari
 
Posts: 35
Joined: April 28th, 2005, 10:36 am

Post Posted February 20th, 2007, 7:25 pm

Hi there -
I just upgraded from Mozilla 1.7.12 to SeaMonkey 1.1. I use Earthlink/Mindspring. In Mozilla 1.7.12 there was an option under Edit/Mail and Newgroups Account Settings/
Server Settings to "leave messages on the server until I delete or move them." Now the only option is to "leave the messages on the server until I delete them." Therefore, I constantly need to go to Webmail to delete and clean up messages. Are there plans to imminently re-add the option to allow the messages to be deleted when I move them? It's only been a week since I upgraded and it's a huge hassle. Helppppp!!!
Thanks

R.N. Folsom
 
Posts: 583
Joined: July 24th, 2004, 4:52 pm

Post Posted February 20th, 2007, 9:57 pm

Calamari:

Ideally, someone using SeaMonkey 1.1 will answer this. I am using the preceding version, SeaMonkey 1.07, and I don't know what changes 1.1 made. (Upgrading is on my "todo" list, but it's not urgent for me because my understanding is that although SeaMonkey 1.1 has some nice features compared to SeaMonkey 1.07, version 1.1 did not fix any security issues compared to 1.07.)

Nevertheless, I'll take a crack at it. First, in SeaMonkey, make sure you have opened the mail and newsgroups, and are in it and not in the browser. (Both can be open, but be sure you are in mail and newsgroups.)

In the Edit menu, do NOT go to preferences. Instead, go to Mail and Newsgroups Account Settings, and then to Server Settings. There, in 1.07, is a checkbox for "Leave messages on server," and for me it is NOT checked. Therefore, what happens is that after I download a message, SeaMonkey sends a message to my ISP that tells said ISP's software to delete from my ISP's mail server, the message(s) that I have downloaded. (Maybe that message doesn't get sent until all the current messages have been downloaded.)

My understanding is that you and I both want the same thing to happen: After downloading messages, we want those downloaded messages to be deleted from the ISP's mail server (Earthlink/Mindspring in your case).

My GUESS is that your 1.1 "Leave the messages on the server until I delete them" and my 1.07 "Leave messages on server" work exactly the same way, even though someone thought she/he/it was improving the checkbox description in 1.1. So my advice is that you uncheck the box.

My GUESS is that the 1.1 description means "Leave messages on the server until I go to Webmail and delete them." So if the box is unchecked, the "default" action is that SeaMonkey NOT leave messages on the server, but instead will tell Earthlink/Mindspring to delete any message that you have successfully downloaded to your local computer.

I hope my guesses are correct. IF they are correct, perhaps SeaMonkey help will confirm the meaning of the message attached to that checkbox. In SM 1.07, and probably also in 1.1, there's a Help button in the lower right corner of the Server Settings dialog box.

Cordially (and hopefully), R.N. (Roger) Folsom


P.S.: In any case, English is hard to write clearly! But I think it's especially difficult to write computing interface and documentation English clearly. At least, over the past 40 years of using (never programming) computers, from IBM mainframes to Windows 2000, I've seen an awful lot of evidence supporting that hypothesis......

calamari
 
Posts: 35
Joined: April 28th, 2005, 10:36 am

Post Posted February 20th, 2007, 10:13 pm

Hi Roger -
Thanks for your detailed answer and your English is fantastic. Actually, we both want ALMOST the same thing to happen. On the previous versions of Mozilla there was a check box to "leave messages on the server until I delete or move them." Note the word "move..." That way, if I wanted stuff to remain on the server I could just leave them in my main Inbox. Once I put them in a different mail folder they would be removed from the server. But at least if I wanted to access stuff from webmail I could leave it in my main inbox and it would stay on the server. Now, the "delete if I move them" option is no longer possible. That was an option I liked to use and it worked well. I wonder if they will put that back in the next SeaMonkey version and make me happy.
Anyone have any thoughts on that?
Thanks.

R.N. Folsom
 
Posts: 583
Joined: July 24th, 2004, 4:52 pm

Post Posted February 20th, 2007, 11:27 pm

calamari wrote:. . . On the previous versions of Mozilla there was a check box to "leave messages on the server until I delete or move them." Note the word "move..." That way, if I wanted stuff to remain on the server I could just leave them in my main Inbox. Once I put them in a different mail folder they would be removed from the server.

Calamari:

Thanks for clarifying what you want!

I used the Mozilla Suite from some early version all the way through version 1.7.12, and I never became aware of the option to leave messages on the Server and on my own Computer's inbox, until I delete them on my own computer or move them to a different Mozilla folder on my computer.

I think that could be quite useful for someone who traveled a lot who wanted his Webmail and his own computer's Inbox to hold current stuff, until it was deleted or moved to a different folder on his own computer. Deleting an email on his local computer obviously could signal his ISP that the deleted item no longer was current, and moving an email to a local folder on his computer reasonably could also signal his ISP that the moved item no longer was current.

When SeaMonkey 1.1 was in development, there was a feature request at
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=sm1.1
I would assume that it is now closed.

But there probably is a Bugzilla feature request for the upcoming SeaMonkey 1.5, but unfortunately I have no idea where to find it, and in any case I don't know if it is open to mere users or only to developers, and if it is open to mere users, I never figured out how to use Bugzilla.

But there is MozillaZine SeaMonkey features forum, at
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewforum.php?f=4

So I suggest posting your request there, with an explanation of how you used the now-missing feature. I'd also suggest posting a second message, asking whether there is a Bugzilla feature request for the next major SeaMonkey version, and also asking where it is, and how to use it!

Cordially, Roger Folsom


P.S.: I have SeaMonkey email folders under my email acount, and also under Local Folders. Conceptually, it might be useful to have the ISP's email deletions be different depending on whether the user moves email from his Inbox to a folder in the same email account, or to a folder in Local Folders.

I have a very vague recollection that when I moved from Netscape Communicator to Mozilla, I asked what the purpose of Local Folders was. The answer was something about the purpose being to accomodate users who kept some email somewhere on a nearby network (wherever the actual email account was located), and other mail on their own "local" computer.

Your use of that Mozilla setting may have been somewhat similar, except that you are using your ISP's mail server as a substitute for a non-internet network. Sort of. Maybe. Perhaps. <grin>

calamari
 
Posts: 35
Joined: April 28th, 2005, 10:36 am

Post Posted February 20th, 2007, 11:46 pm

Thanks, I took your suggestion and posted in the features forum, using some of your ideas.
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic ... 57#2759457
I am not clear how this could be termed a bug, although it is annoying to me... Add anything to that topic if you'd like!
ciao for now

Mike Novack
Guest
 

Post Posted February 21st, 2007, 6:54 am

Just so you understand the issues involved.

POP and IMAP are different from each other and neither is like webmail. Webmail REQUIRES that you have a connection. IMAP is USUALLY used with a conenction active but does provide for workign "offline" and then synching later (at next connection. POP does NOT require connection for anything other than "get messages" (to POP messages from the mailbox on the server to your local machine).

THEREFORE -- for POP users, the choice to "leave on server" or "deleted from server" WHEN MESSAGES ARE POPed makes sense. Your machine aht the POP server are in communication.

But assuming that your POP account (in a 'zilla mail app) is being used OFFLINE, how is the server to find out that you have deleted or moved messages? You appear to be asking along the lines "give us something so our cheaper POP acounts can be used as if they were the more expensive IMAP accounts". Understand? POP accounts aren't intended to be used in this way and normally the provider will not give you a large enough space quota for the POP service mailbox to allow this sort of thing to be used effectively (you MIGHT be able to arrange that with them -- for example, immediately after our house fire, with no working computers at the moment, I asked our small town ISP to increase our quota on an emergency basis so that email to us wouldn't bounce wile we lacked access).

If you require the effect of IMAP service, arrange for IMAP service.

Guest
Guest
 

Post Posted February 21st, 2007, 11:17 am

Dear Mike -
No, I'm not asking for IMAP service or anything more complicated. I'm just asking for a feature that I had and was using in Mozilla 1.7.12. In Mozilla 1.7.12 there was an option under Edit/Mail and Newgroups Account Settings/
Server Settings to "leave messages on the server until I delete or move them" and I enjoyed using it. I therefore concluded that it's not a complicated feature, since it was in the previous version of Mozilla.
Thanks.

mimi_s_mum
 
Posts: 30
Joined: May 23rd, 2006, 2:02 pm
Location: Aotearoa / New Zealand

Post Posted February 28th, 2007, 2:36 pm

calamari, this feature still exists in SeaMonkey version 1.0.8 (released yesterday?). I used to use this feature a lot, while I was testing several email clients.

Mike Novack wrote:Just so you understand the issues involved.
...... You appear to be asking along the lines "give us something so our cheaper POP acounts can be used as if they were the more expensive IMAP accounts". Understand? .....

Mike, this feature has existed since Mozilla Suite and still exists in 1.0.8. You apparently have had no issues with it. Why, then, this overbearing, or even insulting, tone? Yes I have not been finacially well-off and tried to do without signing up more expensive IMAP account for just testing a few mail clients. I don't know what reason calamari wants this feature for, but am pretty sure he has a good reason to want it. Still neither of us deserves to be dismissed as 'a miser demanding irrelevant feature to save a few bucks'.

Guest
Guest
 

Post Posted March 1st, 2007, 12:28 pm

My wife and I also use that feature because both of us use our work email (for work issues) regularily from home. However we set the preference on the home PC to not remove from server and set the work PC to delete from server (when msg deleted or moved). This is so when we retrieve email from home it is still on the server for the work PC yet I can delete OR FILE them on my home PC. Both our employers use POP and we have no option to demand they upgrade to IMAP. We also use two PCs networked at home with some joint email accounts but the settings flipped in the same manner so one person is in effect the administrater yet the other person still has access to emails of mutual intrest. So there are many reasons why this feature is very useful to diferent people.

Mike Novack
Guest
 

Post Posted March 1st, 2007, 3:02 pm

What I meant.

Imagine the following sequence
1) Connect to your provider.
2) Connect to the POP server
3) Receive messages
4) DISCONNECT from your provider. Your computer at this point has NO connection to the outside world.
5) Move an email message from your inbox. Delete a message from your inbox. You can of course do this. While you can neither receive nor send messages without a connection, the mail application can be open and you can move around or delete mail messages to your hearts content.

Do you understand what I meant now. There is NO way that the server can delete any message that you deleted or moved. It has no way of knowing about events that are taking place on your computer.

I was simply trying to say that the feature could not really be working "as advertised". Impossible for it to delete from the server WHEN moved or deleted. That it could have an "effect" similar to what people expected is another matter (you would not realize that the messages had not actually been deleted from the server YET until you have reconnected.

Do you need a scenario where this "when" makes a difference?

Guest
Guest
 

Post Posted March 2nd, 2007, 12:16 pm

Regarding the above comment: when you reconnect to the pop server, it should send the state of your inbox, including whether you've deleted OR moved messages from the inbox. Now it doesn't care whether you've moved them.

And that is a damn stupid bug.

When you move the message to the new folder, and RECONNECT to the pop server, it doesn't delete the message from your inbox, like it did before.

AARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH.

Please fix this ASAP.

highlandsun

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Posts: 187
Joined: February 17th, 2004, 4:27 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Posted March 2nd, 2007, 3:11 pm

Well, the old feature worked fine. Yes, the client keeps track of which server an email was downloaded from, and is perfectly capable of updating the server with all the relevant state changes the next time you connect.

But somebody decided the Preferences setting was too complex for simpleminded Thunderbird users to understand, so they axed it. That's what happens when you go commercial and cater to ignorant users instead of trying to educate them.
-- Howard Chu http://www.symas.com

Guest
Guest
 

Post Posted March 2nd, 2007, 4:06 pm

They didn't just axe the setting, they unilaterally altered the behaviour of your previous mail settings, which just worked imo, and are not warning people.
People's mail boxes are going to fill up and they are going to lose new messages when their ISP bounces them, because they thought they were moving messages out of their inboxes, but instead they will remain there.

I like to keep some messages in my inbox so that I can read them while I'm away using my ISP's webmail interface. But I can't keep all messages there or it fills up.

===

I can't believe this new behaviour is for real, and not a bug.

----
Anyway, how do I change Seamonkey to work properly, and delete messages from the inbox that I move from my inbox? Is it possible?

Mike Novack
Guest
 

Post Posted March 3rd, 2007, 7:08 am

Sorry.

Perhaps because I design software being too much of a "literalist". I believe that "when" is being interpreted differently when you see it and when I see it. Perhaps also that I see difficulties related to "unusual conditions" that you don't. What seems to be "working fine" to end users under ORDINARY conditons may not in fact work under ALL conditions. That is the reason for my reference to IMAP because in that protocol the local machine is supposed to be guarnteeing a set of folders which CAN be synched with those on the server. In other words, I am forseeing interesting difficulties with POP where that is NOT true (no rules are being broken if the contents of the files representing inbox are modified (changed) OUTSIDE the control of the application).

Imagine for a moment a somewhat limited IMAP with just ONE folder on the server being synched with one folder on the local machine. That appears to be the behavor described (if changes are made to the folder on the local machine while not connected, will resynch at the first chance --- and so changes to this folder will NOT be made outside the application).

If you want an obvious simple example of why I see complications you don't, imagine the results of a "restore" operation on the inbox (that's an example of somethign that changes the cntents of the "inbox" outside the control of the application)

Guest
Guest
 

Post Posted March 3rd, 2007, 1:04 pm

So Seamonkey team decided to completely destroy a function, not tell anybody, provide no workarounds, because sometimes pop state can be corrupted. We know pop state can be corrupted. This is well known. It is probably why a lot of servers disallow you to leave messages on the pop server in the first place.

There is absolutely no reason why that corruption still isn't also going to occur now, despite these mystifying changes in Seamonkey.

----

There is no misunderstanding of the word "when", in my opinion. When you delete a message from your inbox, the next time you log in, your pop state is updated on the server, and the message on the server is deleted (if you have it set to not automatically delete messages on the server as soon as they are downloaded, and to leave messages on the server until they are deleted.)

It used to be that if you either deleted OR moved the message from the inbox, the pop state would be updated the next time you log in to delete the message from the server. THIS NO LONGER HAPPENS. If you move them from the inbox, they now still remain on the server: the pop state is not updated when you log in telling the server to delete the message.

Because nobody at Seamonkey bothered to warn the user about this major change in functionality, the server fills up, and the user will lose mail when it bounces.

It's killing a fly with a bazooka. It's mozilla's WGA. It's causing more problems than it was conceivably meant to solve, and leaving users in the dark. (Where are the bug numbers ?)

MAD MAD MAD ANGRY :-(

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