SeaMonkey 1.0.x vs 1.1.2

[R.N. Folsom]

Phil:

Previously, I hadn't spent much serious time in this forum, because I am very happy with SeaMonkey as it is.

So I didn't know that many Firefox/Thunderbird extensions had to be ported to SeaMonkey; I thought they usually just worked! (As does NoScript, my only extension to date.) And I also didn't know who was doing the porting. I also didn't know that SeaMonkey.be was BenoitRen's site, although I had guessed it was (I don't think his identity is on the site, although it's unfortunately true that I'm notoriously unobservant.).

There's a lot I don't know! But now I do know that you both have done a lot of work for the rest of us. Thank you very much.

. . . Even though NoSquint is "not a total solution," did NoSquint remove all of the font size disadvantages of SeaMonkey 1.1.2 compared to 1.0.x?

I'm not too sure what you mean. Since getting my new notebook all the fonts look very tiny in all applications including Firefox and SeaMonkey (all versions). I can't do much about the chrome (menus and dialogs) but NoSquint helps considerably when it comes to viewing webpages.

I thought your "not a total solution" meant only "not a total solution within websites viewed in SeaMonkey, or in SeaMonkey help." I didn't understand that you were talking about essentially everything on your new notebook. Also, I realize now that my "comparison" question makes no sense because since your notebook is new to you, you probably haven't used both 1.0.x and 1.1.x on it. So I'll withdraw the question.

As for tiny fonts in all applications: When I first got my Dell C800 laptop in 2001 (since semi-replaced by a C840) with UXGA screen, those tiny fonts were awful. Dell "support" told me to dumb down the resolution, but the results were very jagged (because the Dell continued to use the entire physical screen, rather than "black-border" it). I later got confirmation elsewhere that running a laptop LCD in its non-native mode is either awful (my case) or pointless (if the laptop responds with black borders around a smaller used screen area). I went on the Dell user-to-user website, and some poor guy, who had purchased a UXGA Dell laptop for his boss, was getting chewed out for buying a laptop on which the boss couldn't read anything. The guy expected to be, or at least feared being, fired. Nobody from Dell helped. Long after his post, I discovered a solution that I sent him, but I never got a response so I fear I was too late.

At least in Windows 2000, the solution (which probably came to me from someone on CompuServe) is: Right-click on Desktop and select Properties, which will get you Display Properties. In the Settings tab, click the Advanced button. In the box that results, there is a font size setting. The "standard" is 100% = 96dpi. I set both of my Dells to 150% = 144dpi, because that setting gives me a default font size that displays characters only a tad smaller than in a Texas Instruments Travelmate 6160 12" Win98se SVGA laptop. I liked the TI, so I went with 150%.

Since you are knowledgeable enough to port stuff, I suspect you know everything in the preceding paragraph, but for some reason it doesn't work for you. That surprises me. But a few Win2k boxes do ignore that 150% setting: e.g. the "Windows is starting up" wording (long after the Windows splash screen) as Windows boots, and the "Windows is shutting down" when you shut down. But most Win2k boxes' fonts, and all of the applications that I use (I use the WordPerfect Suite, but also have MS Office installed, plus DesignCad, PaperPort, OmniPage, and Dragon Naturally Speaking), do pay attention to that setting.

It's possible, however, that as Windows got "prettier" in XP and probably even more so in Vista, that more and more boxes ignore that font size setting. Also, Norton 2004 boxes ignore that setting. (I no longer have Norton installed, because I now use Eset's NOD32 antivirus and Webroot's SpySweeper anti-spyware, and I can run Norton Utilities from the CD.)

The 150% setting does have disadvantages (but you can scale it up or down in single digit percentages). Some utility program windows have text fields that aren't quite long enough for my 150% text size, so a letter or two doesn't show. Examples: Webroot (although I'm a decimal version out of date), and some Clipmate (Thornsoft) dialog boxes. But I'm usually able to figure out the complete wording, enough to use the box.

That 150% setting has caused absolutely no "fields too small; not sufficiently scalable" problems in SeaMonkey 1.0.8 (and its Mozilla Suite and Netscape Communicator predecessors) itself. But for some websites, sometimes I do need to decrease SeaMonkey's minimum font size in order to prevent some websites from piling content on top of other content.

To facilitate changing those settings and keeping them per site (e.g. Schwab), NoSquint would appear to be ideal. At the top of http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmisc.html
I read that "Several of these depend on the presence of xSidebar to supply Firefox compatibility functions." I assume that includes NoSquint.

I've been using SeaMonkey/MozillaSuite for many years with no need for extensions (I started NoScript only a month or two ago, after Brian Livingston's WindowsSecrets newsletter recommended it). But that appears to be changing, although I'm still nervous about running more than a few, for fear of conflicts.

Thanks, very much, again.

Roger Folsom

[raj_bhaskar]

but it's ability to remember your zoom settings automatically on a per site basis is now a lifesaver.

Philip, see bug 386363. This has been fixed for Firefox and should be fixable for SeaMonkey (SuiteRunner) too.

[Philip Chee]

but it's ability to remember your zoom settings automatically on a per site basis is now a lifesaver.

Philip, see bug 386363. This has been fixed for Firefox and should be fixable for SeaMonkey (SuiteRunner) too.

I actually have Myk's content preferences extension ported to SeaMonkey you know:
http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modified.html#contentpreferences

Unfortunately wossname is still on SeaMonkey 1.0.8 and the UI for Content Preferences is rather naff. So for his purposes NoSquint is preferable.

Phil

[Scarlettrunner20]

I actually have Myk's content preferences extension ported to SeaMonkey you know:
http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modified.html#contentpreferences


Phil

It doesn't work on 2.0a1pre.

[Philip Chee]

I actually have Myk's content preferences extension ported to SeaMonkey you know:
http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modified.html#contentpreferences

It doesn't work on 2.0a1pre.

Hmm. Try content_preferences-0.3.1-mod.xpi. This doesn't work in SeaMonkey 1.0/1.1 but probably might in SuiteRunner. But these extensions are really proof of concept extensions. Newer versions of this code have been incorporated into Firefox 3.0a and perhaps eventually into SeaMonkey 2.0 final.

If you just want persistent zoom, then content preferences is rather overkill and you should stick to NoSquint.

Phil

[sibber]

I installed nosquint on seamonkey 1.1.14, but i can't get it to work.

it doesn't remember zoom settings on the same page between browser settings.

any advice?

thanks... i'd LOVE to have this.

ps - anyone know how to do something similar in the preview pane of mail? what a drag

[Philip Chee]

I installed nosquint on seamonkey 1.1.14, but i can't get it to work.

it doesn't remember zoom settings on the same page between browser settings.

What version of NoSquint did you try? Make sure that you are using version 1.0.0 from http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmisc.html#nosquint.

Phil

[R.N. Folsom]

Phil:

I have concluded that what is needed is a NoSquint that remembers a site's minimum font size. On a 15" UXGA (1600x1200 pixels) laptop screen, using Windows 2000, I find that when I find a site that needs a larger font size, of course it's the smallest size text that is the problem. But when I scale it up using Ctrl+, the biggest effect is to scale up the fonts on the page that are already large enough to read easily. I think that's because Ctrl+ works by percentages rather than points. Hence if Ctrl+ increases a page's fonts by, say, 10%, the effect on the smallest text is to leave it quite small, while enlarging the largest text by the largest amounts (in points). Often that increase in the site's largest texts messes the site up, so I have to do Ctrl- to fix that problem.

So, site by site, in Preferences, Appearance, Fonts, I manually set a larger minimum font. But on some sites, that causes things to overlap, so I have to go back and set a smaller font, annoying though it may be. After I make the effort to manually set a site's minimum font size, it would be nice, when I later revisit the site, not to have to set its minimum font size manually once again. That's why I would like NoSquint (or some other extension) to focus on the minimum font size. I've yet to find a site where I found the largest text to be too small.

This thought probably should go somewhere else, but I don't know where.

Also, I've got several issues here, although they are related. I would like SeaMonkey's Ctrl+ and Ctrl- to have an option to work in points rather than in percentages. And I would like a shorter access (fewer clicks) to change a site's minimum font size. And I would like NoSquint to remember a site's minimum font size.

Cordially, Roger Folsom

[Philip Chee]

Roger I think you should start a separate thread.

I have concluded that what is needed is a NoSquint that remembers a site's minimum font size.

This isn't what NoSquint is designed to do and it doesn't claim to do that.

So, site by site, in Preferences, Appearance, Fonts, I manually set a larger minimum font.

I'm sorry but I can't see where in SeaMonkeys Preferences this can be set site by site, only on a global level.

Also, I've got several issues here, although they are related. I would like SeaMonkey's Ctrl+ and Ctrl- to have an option to work in points rather than in percentages.

I'm sorry but looking at how the ZoomManager code in SeaMonkey calls the backed it is clear that the backend code only knows about percentages and since on trunk (SeaMonkey 2.0a) the ZoomManager zooms the whole page (including images), using "points" is meaningless in any case.

Phil

[R.N. Folsom]

Phil: Thanks for your responses.

Roger I think you should start a separate thread.

Agreed. I'm about to go off on a trip, but when I come back next week I'll try to set up a separate thread, which I guess ought to be in the SeaMonkey features forum.
On second thought, to a large extent that new thread will include the ideas that I wrote in my preceding message here and that I am writing in this message, which will cause that new thread to violate MozillaZine's "no duplication" rules (usually a reasonable prohibition), causing the moderator to chastise me (it's happened before) and to banish my new thread to an I forget where location, that I recall as being inaccessible. It's my fault that I stupidly raised my issues here, but it's too late now. So I'll just continue this message, and then give up. My issues aren't all that crucial (see my last paragraph below).

I have concluded that what is needed is a NoSquint [I meant a different extension-utility] that remembers a site's minimum font size.

This isn't what NoSquint is designed to do and it doesn't claim to do that.

Understood and agreed. I didn't mean to be criticizing NoSquint. All I was trying to do was point out a different problem.

So, site by site, in [Edit], Preferences, Appearance, Fonts, I manually set a larger minimum font.

I'm sorry but I can't see where in SeaMonkeys Preferences this can be set site by site, only on a global level.

I also can't see where to set a page's minimum font size site by site, and have that setting remembered. That's my point. What I meant is that often when I visit Schwab's home page at https://www.schwab.com , for example, I have to go to Edit, Preferences, Appearances, Fonts, and change SeaMonkey's global level minimum font size (either increase or decrease, depending on what changes I made earlier while visiting some other website) to fit Schwab's layout. Doing that is tiresome. I'd like to do it only once, and have that minimum font size remembered, for each site.

Also, I've got several issues here, although they are related. I would like SeaMonkey's Ctrl+ and Ctrl- to have an option to work in points rather than in percentages.

I'm sorry but looking at how the ZoomManager code in SeaMonkey calls the backed it is clear that the backend code only knows about percentages and since on trunk (SeaMonkey 2.0a) the ZoomManager zooms the whole page (including images), using "points" is meaningless in any case.

Incidentally, ZoomManager apparently doesn't always zoom images. For example, go to Schwab's home page and see the graphs of today's wonderful decline (to see them, scroll down the page). Then try Ctrl+. The graphs don't change size, but all of the page's text sizes (for text not buried in an image) do. And on other sites where ZoomManager does expand graphics, my recollection is that sometimes the graphics expand to where they cover text which also may be expanding. (Such sites probably don't "wrap to the window.") Unfortunately, I don't have a current example or link in mind, although I think that an "everything on top of everything else" phenomenon happened to me a year or so ago on the Sony TV purchases website (which I couldn't find a way to fix, so I had to use a telephone, perhaps meaning that this example is irrelevant to the problem at hand).

That said, I understand your point. And I gather that adding "backend code" for an additional "ZoomManagerText" that would expand only text (and perhaps also for a "ZoomManagerGraphics"' that would try to expand images only unless the site, e.g. Schwab, blocked that) would be a major project.

So I will dream of something simpler: a much easier (i.e. faster) way --- on the menu bar or toolbar or both --- to set the global minimum font size to fit whatever website one might be on (unfortunately without remembering that). Then revisiting a site and resetting its font size again wouldn't be quite as tiresome as it is now, even if it has to be redone every time one visits that site (assuming that on an earlier visit to a different website, one reset the global minimum font size to fit that site).

I should note that this minimum font size issue probably arises only for a small minority of SeaMonkey (or Firefox) users: those of us who use laptops with a 15" UXGA (1600x1200 pixels) or wider 17" WUXGA screen, and (in Windows' Display Properties, Settings, Advanced) have reset the standard font size larger than the "standard" 96dpi. Mine is set to 150% of 96dpi = 144dpi, which makes Windows' default font sizes closely match what one would see on a 12" SVGA screen. Some web pages (and software programs) pay attention to this setting; others ignore it totally (for web pages, thereby leaving the browser's font size settings in complete control); others (again, web pages and also software) pay attention to it for some text on a given page (or window) but ignore it for other text on the same given page. Especially for the many web pages that don't "wrap to the window" (again, Schwab's home page cited above), a too-large minimum font size can cause all sorts of overlaps of text and also images, making the page unreadable until one reduces all font sizes (Ctrl-) --- which may require a separate reduction of the minimum font size.

Roger Folsom

[therube]

FWIW, some of MS's intentions relating to font sizes & whatnot in IE8, Making the Web Bigger: DPI Scaling and Internet Explorer 8.

[R.N. Folsom]

FWIW, some of MS's intentions relating to font sizes & whatnot in IE8, Making the Web Bigger: DPI Scaling and Internet Explorer 8.

The Rube:

Thanks for that interesting link. Incidentally, when I went to it, I used Ctrl+ to increase its font size --- but the images did not scale up, which is another example (along with Schwab's site, which I mentioned in my most recent preceding post in this thread) of Ctrl+ scaling only text but not images, contrary to Philip Chee's statement (three posts ahead of this one in this thread) that the SeaMonkey "ZoomManager zooms the whole page (including images)."
I wonder if I have some SeaMonkey setting, somewhere, that is blocking image size changes.

I was amused to read, on the MS site to which your link goes, that

> To address the issue of Web page content appearing small, many users lower the display resolution and thus prevent themselves from viewing Web pages at a native resolution: the resolution that a display is meant to be used at. Although the content does look larger as a result, it also looks less sharp. <

Then the site discusses a better solution --- but to my amusement, presents this better solution as if all of it were brand new:

> The Windows DPI Scaling feature will scale up fonts and UI elements (such as buttons, icons, input fields) by a certain percentage specified by a user. <

But for Windows 2000, and likely for XP also, DPI Scaling is available at least for fonts. As I noted in my most recent preceding post, in Win2k font size scaling is at Display Properties, Settings tab, Advanced button. And desktop icon size can be set at Display Properties, Advanced tab --- and I think, but am not sure, that that setting applies also to other icons, e.g. in Windows Explorer, and possibly also in applications written to pay attention to it.

Admittedly, if I read the site correctly, Windows 7 and MSIE 8 apparently have automated some of that, but I didn't study the details because I don't expect ever to use either Win7 or MSIE 8.

Learning a new operating system is an awful time sink that I hope never to repeat. (My carcass is sufficiently ancient that sticking with Win2k on my current computer likely will be feasible, even after MS drops Windows 2000 Update support in 2010.)

Roger Folsom

[BenoitRen]

R. N. Folsom, you're using SeaMonkey 1.1.14. Please reread what Philip Chee wrote:

on trunk (SeaMonkey 2.0a) the ZoomManager zooms the whole page (including images)

[R.N. Folsom]

R. N. Folsom, you're using SeaMonkey 1.1.14. Please reread what Philip Chee wrote:

on trunk (SeaMonkey 2.0a) the ZoomManager zooms the whole page (including images)

Thank you. I don't know how I missed the "(SeaMonkey 2.0a)." But that is great news, and I appreciate your pointing out my unintended misleading quote of what Philip Chee had written.

Here's hoping that there will be some setting that controls the percentage by which each Ctrl+ or Ctrl- changes the zoom amount.

Thanks again.

Roger Folsom

[Philip Chee]

Thank you. I don't know how I missed the "(SeaMonkey 2.0a)." But that is great news, and I appreciate your pointing out my unintended misleading quote of what Philip Chee had written.

Grammar nit: that should be "unintentionally misleading paraphrase".

OCD Phil